Why am I concerned about shaming those who question “gun control solutions?”

I raise that question in the content below, plus give some extra commentary. A few people dialogued with me ongoingly.

As background, yesterday, there was a facebook post started by one of my classmates from high school (that I have known since cub scouts in elementary school). He eventually  disliked that his post generated a lot of notifications (comments), so I “archived” the entire thread and all subthreads below.

(Unfortunately, it is NOT clear below where the different subthreads begin and end. So, reading through the content below might be quite tricky. Of course, anyone reading here can focus on my comments, plus you can look for the names of Everett Young and Lisa Nolan, who were the two other correspondents that interacted with me the most.)

Another shooting at another high school. 8 more people needlessly lost their lives. Cue the next wave of pro gun vs anti gun social media fights and of course the thoughts and prayers.

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Luis Carreja

Luis Carreja So the open carry state of Texas can’t stop it…..hmm.

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Wendi Warner Nation

Wendi Warner Nation Guns, no guns…what is wrong with our children? My grandmother would say it’s because people stopped going to church. My dad would say it started with Dr. Spock and don’t spank your children. Society says it’s about guns (for or against). I am at a loss.

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Julie Felton

Julie Felton What scares me is I have a son in high school…my only child. I can’t imagine what these parents are living thru😢😢💔💔

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Bobby shared his thoughts above. That was his wave and this comment below it (mine here) is another ripple.

If Australia bans knives next, will that bring back to life the kids recently killed there in a school shooting? Nope. Guns are already banned there, right?

The best way to prevent school shootings is to ban schools. My logic here is solid, no?

Oh dang… somebody might operate a school even if we try to ban them…..

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· Reply · 1d · Edited

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Frank Liczba

Frank Liczba There was no recent school shooting in Australia.

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Luis Carreja

Luis Carreja You’re too intelligent to post such a silly statement.

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Daniel Knighton

Daniel Knighton Luis Carreja apparently he’s not.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Maybe I was just setting out some bait. No, the recent mass shooting of several youth last week there did not happen on school grounds. But did it happen with a gun in spite of a gun ban?

Frank, Luis, DanielSee MoreManage

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I accept the idea that 8 kids dying tragically happens a lot. Some are shot at school. Some are shot outside of school. Some are killed with bombs or knives or in a car crash while texting and driving.

others by opiate overdose and so on….

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn You do not need to spend a few years as an EMT to recognize that most tragic deaths have no political implications. Some might even argue that almost every death is tragic (for someone).

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· Reply · 1d · Edited

Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan Australia hasnt had a mass shooting since 97. I lived there then and the gun control does work. How many mass shootings have we had since 97? I realize they had a shooting recently but it was 1 since 1997.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Hi Lisa,

Of course gun control laws can reduce gun violence. Of course gun control laws can also increase total violence (Mexico, Chicago, UK, etc)

But should we think of some deaths as more tragic than others? Should we think of some violent deaths as more tragic than others? Should we sacrifice X for Y?

Some people embrace those questions, some ridicule them, and some simply focus on other questions.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I presume that Bobby’s original post is an instance of “virtue-signaling” intended to shame people who would question that the deaths that he labels as “needless” are somehow more tragic than something like suicide or a car crash. I could be wrong though.

He may not understand (or respect) those who do not share certain values of his.

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· Reply · 1d · Edited

Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan I think our country’s problems are complex but I also believe in simple solutions. Doing nothing to regulate ARs is a complete failure to assist our communities.

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan Healthcare is a joke too. We are in peril. It’s depressing

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Governments regulate lots of things. They assist some communities / groups at the expense of others.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I know more about healthcare issues than gun regulations. There are many policies that greatly increase health care costs (and reduce quality of care). I used to be more discouraged by such things, but the reality is that there are LOTS of great health-promotion methods ignored by or oppressed by governments.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn It seems like every few years, there is another declassified admission from the pentagon of the latest secret biological weapons tests on unsuspecting US civilians:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-admits-bio-weapons-tests/Manage

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The protection of drug pushers by the government seems amazing at first. Lots of studies show that many very popular drugs definitely increase rates of violence and suicide. Michael Moore, who I do not typically agree with, made some scathing criticisms of the US government’s policies that encourage young people to become addicted to medications that are widely known to destabilize their mental health.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Would you be surprised if his position, based on all he learned in relation to the massacre at Columbine high school, is that if governments stopped protecting those drug makers, that alone would be much easier and more effective (for school safety) than “eliminating access to guns?”

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Lisa, if interested, I dug this video up because elsewhere in this thread Everett asked me to:

Not sure of the year of this clip:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpinCRaAQOkManage

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan J R Fibonacci Hunn thanks I appreciate your comments. Im not nearly as informed as you. But I know we are in trouble and I know what I saw work in Oz.

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· Reply · 23h

Everett Young

Everett Young I’ll say this: if SSRIs are the cause of youth violence, we should see an increase internationally as SSRIs are prescribed more. The US isn’t the only place where they’re used. I just read a summary of research in Psychology Today. Not a peer-reviewed journal, but it cited peer reviewed European research. There is suggestive data that perhaps SSRIs could cause some people to become more violent, but it’s pretty far from looking strong enough to be the sole cause of school shootings.

Gun control absolutely works. We are never going to do it in the U.S., obviously, as we have fully accepted mass murder of children as a price of gun liberty. But I would humbly ask JRFH to at least admit that he’s against gun control in the face of data showing it absolutely reduces gun deaths, rather than pretending that’s not even true.

The Chicago thing is a red herring. It is a myth that gun control has made Chicago more violent than other cities. Chicago is not particularly violent for an American city. Several southern cities, where guns are less regulated, are statistically more dangerous.

SSRIs are something to look at. It’s a hypothesis worth further study.

But really, I think gun-rights advocates should go ahead and concede that the data show gun control reduces gun deaths. Because (A) it does, and (B) it doesn’t matter, because even if it were proven beyond all doubt that gun control would cut gun deaths to 1/1000 of their current level, gun-rights advocates are not going to change their position, and the U.S. is not anywhere near banning even the most destructive guns. Why not concede the data if it’s not going to change anything anyway?

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Why are you interested in gun control? When did your interest begin?

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· Reply · 19h

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The studies on the dangers of some of the most popular prescription drugs are quite clear (absolutely no controversy that I am aware of):

https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3697/rr-4Manage

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Just as one point of contrast (and there are many), the death rate from certain prescription opiates (like fentanyl) doubled from 2015 to 2016.

but that is just me baiting people who present themselves as caring about stats on tragic deaths.

I am much more interested in other topics. There are AMAZING health breakthroughs that are largely unknown in the US (often because the profits of the drug pushers are threatened).

For people who SEEK controversy and divisiveness, they can turn on their favorite news program and then come on Facebook and argue with whoever. That is up to them….

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db294.htmManage

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn If you prefer to concentrate as much military capacity as possible in law enforcement agencies, that is up to you. If you prefer to invest your faith and future in to a particular TV network or media conglomerate, that is up to you as well.

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· Reply · 19h

Everett Young

Everett Young J R Fibonacci Hunn All very real and serious problems you bring up. And documented—not crazy talk. I just don’t know if I agree with your obvious implication regarding gun control.

But it doesn’t matter because we aren’t doing gun control, and we aren’t going to.

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· Reply · 12h

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not know what my “obvious implication about gun control” is. First, I consider it a bizarre topic.

I understand the hysteria after an alarming incident. I understand the emotion connected to any case of mortality. I also understand the “Stockholm syndrome” (in this case, the desire to abdicate accountability to a remote group of ruling elites who will have almost all of the available firepower).

And I understand the shame and rage of socialists and other totalitarian-minded political advocates.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Yet, as I mentioned to Lisa above:

“Of course gun control CAN reduce gun violence.”

Hysterical liberals may PRETEND that anyone who disagrees with their policy preferences also disagrees with all of their premises. That, to me, is an extreme case of “intellectual dishonesty.”

I am right here if someone has a question for me, but the herd may presumptively believe about me whatever their news shows program them to believe: (such as) that there is a dichotomy of exactly two views.

I also said to Lisa above that gun control policies CAN increase total violence (or crime rates), as is evident for anyone honest enough to review a bit of history. (There are of course also many cases in which governments – not just isolated attackers- wiped out millions of their own population shortly after a gun confiscation program.)

Further, the key argument of hysterical totalitarians may be that “sacrificing freedom for security is not only appropriate in a specific case, but anyone who ever questions that idea is unquestionably insane.”

They have immense faith in their media outlets. They have immense faith in their rulers.

I do not attempt to convince three year-olds to be skeptical about Santa Claus. I also do not EXPECT “just anyone” to be emotionally stable enough to face basic uncontroversial information. That could be historical details like a series of published scientific studies or simple facts of history.

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· Reply · 8h

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Is a news broadcast designed to stimulate and bait people long enough to watch another set of ads for drugs and Memorial Day sales? Or is it something your own grandpa created to address you personally for promoting your adaptiveness, wisdom, and prosperity?

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· Reply · 8h

Everett Young

Everett Young Your obvious implication is obvious. You know what you’re driving at, and I get it: when there’s a mass killing by gun, it’s irrational to elevate a discussion of gun control as a solution, because there are other things that matter more.

I seriously don’t think gun control increasing violence is well documented historically. I know of a couple of easily debunked claims of it (gun control caused the holocaust, gun control causes Chicago’s gun violence). But maybe there’s a better documented case you know of.

Accusing liberals of being totalitarians and being dishonest is not gonna be helpful either. I know a lot of liberals, and none of them fit this bill. As a group, liberals have some problems that annoy me a LOT, but I’m not interested in discussing those with someone who is inclined to despise liberals.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I recognize that various “gun control” proposals can be beneficial. I did not say that the proposals on the whole are irrational. If you did not get, that is quite notable to me.

I even directly, clearly said “they can reduce gun violence.”

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn But as a reaction to an incident, to presume that a particular gun control policy is automatically the most relevant thing to focus on… is remarkable.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not despise liberals. I fear their hysteria. And I am a former socialist.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn As for data on the UK’s gun control resulting in a decade-long bubble in violent crime, the data is ways to find. This article links to lots of data from the U.K.:

https://crimeresearch.org/…/murder-and-homicide-rates…/Manage

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Bobby Selvaggio

Bobby Selvaggio Hey guys,
I appreciate each and every one of you taking the time to comment. Maybe it’s time to call it a day on this thread, yes?

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· Reply · 10m

Bob Anthony

Bob Anthony But they’re not terrorists or militants if they are white…..just mentally unstable.

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Drew Watson

Drew Watson Yep. But let’s be sure even these disturbed white men and boys have access to guns and ammunition so we don’t accidentally trample their rights and prevent another tragedy. Makes perfect sense all the way around.

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Ronald Rincon

Ronald Rincon Not far from Houston. People are freaking out here…I was in the car for 20 minutes listening to the radio and every station had people calling flipping out. Very sad.

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan Our country is falling apart. Its very depressing

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Everett Young

Everett Young I have nothing to say. Retracting my comments.

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Bobby Selvaggio

Bobby Selvaggio Unfortunately you are correct.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Everett, are you familiar with Michael Moore’s “arguments” in relation to policy changes to reduce school shootings? I assume you are not.

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Everett Young

Everett Young I am not familiar with these arguments, or “arguments.” Which are they, by the way?

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Matt Taylor

Matt Taylor Everett Young please be careful when you use terms like “the gun people” and “the pro gun side”. It’s all too easy to do that when what you really mean is the NRA which is actually very different from the other two terms you used. The NRA is an abhorrent organization that I have no respect for whatsoever and who actively undermines safety and common sense.

On the flipside, I know MANY gun owners (including me) who hate what the NRA stands for and resent being lumped into terms such as “the gun people” and “the pro gun side”. Contrary to what the media relentlessly tell you to believe, many many gun owners want massive gun ownership reform and don’t want things like guns in classrooms. We want mandatory background checks, waiting periods, required safety courses and many more protections than are offered right now. We are OUTRAGED at the senseless loss of life and are very angry that we get thrown in with those NRA assholes. So, as a favor, please I beg you to refer to the NRA instead of those other things. Sadly, they are the ones who have all the power, money and exposure and the rest of us sane gun owners want nothing to do with them. Thanks

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Everett Young

Everett Young Matt, you are right. I apologize. I should not have said anything.

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Matt Taylor

Matt Taylor Everett no, it’s good to speak up. It’s just also good to be clear about who is who, that’s all.

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Everett Young

Everett Young For my own sake, I’m out. I said no more politics a few months ago. I need to stick to that. America has made its choice, I support the American political process.

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Everett Young

Everett Young J R Fibonacci Hunn I’m interested in Moore’s hypothesis but he committed a ridiculous error in that video when he said “what other explanation is there?” That’s an easily spotted fallacy, the argument from ignorance. It’s “I can’t think of another reason, therefore my favorite reason is it.” Like “I can’t explain the universe, therefore God.”

Moore must do better than that. However, data are data and if there’s a correlation between ssri and violence, it’ll be in the data.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn It is in the data, Everett. It is in published clinical research (across decades). But that research is rarely mentioned in media or schools (because of centralized control of content). I found the scientific documentation by way of a string of successful court cases against pharmaceutical corporations.

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Everett Young

Everett Young If you share, I’ll follow the lead. I do find the hypothesis plausible.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I appreciate your frankness, Everett. For now, I will leave the topic for other things.

I am not ridiculing people for jumping in to popular media hysterias rather than researching science and history. I get the immense appeal of that. “Take all the suppressed rage and then target whoever your favorite media channel tells us to hate.”

If you (or I) want to know, the truth is out there. If you (or I) don’t want to know, there are lots of uninformed, divisive statements we can use to experience the drama of contentiousness.

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· Reply · 23h

Drew Watson

Drew Watson Observation: how quickly these conversations stray from the victims and policy change to you, I and pet theories. It isn’t about us, except in our (so far) failure to protect our nation’s children. Scoring points in support of or against theory x appears to me to be an outlet for the anxiety, confusion and frustration we feel at our inability to influence the real problems. I’m probably doing it now, so question: what do we do right now, today to help the job of American student be safer than American soldier?

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Drew, when have “the conversations” ever been about the victims? Even with the highly-publicized parkland FL shootings, there was a focus on someone like David Hogg (who was not even at school during the shooting) and so little coverage of people who were actually shot (but survived). As for parents of deceased kids, again only a select few were broadcast (and the others totally ignored by most “crisis voyeurs”).

Because I sought it out, I saw video of one teacher who was shot plus one student who was not, as well as articles about two kids who were shot and hospitalized. BUT… that is not why they were getting any media attention.

The media attention was largely on their lawsuits against the sheriff department, school board, and other defendants for a gross lack of accountability. Generally, people LOVE to pretend to care about the actual people injured or killed, but instead come on Facebook like to talk to ME about how much they care about survivors that they have not and will not ever interact with (and probably won’t even notice at all unless broadcast on their favorite news programming).

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Everett Young

Everett Young I don’t think it’s pretending to care.

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J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn We all invest time in to whatever incidents, topics, and viewpoints appeal to us. Some just see a news broadcast and that is enough for them.

Many commenters on Facebook seem totally unaware of the various lawsuits relating to slain students or injured survivors (some very seriously disabled by gunshot wounds).

In addition to varying levels of interest in the existence of the lawsuits, there are varying levels of interest in the details of the lawsuits.

A big issue in some of the lawsuits (for the shootings in parkland FL) is that officers arrived to the scene and then did not operate according to standard procedure (instead, just standing around outside instead of closing in on the gunfire).

While some emotionally call for investing greater dependence on new laws, some lawsuits focus on why existing laws and policies have been ignored by police (whether occasionally or consistently).

note also that it was officers from the coral gables police department who began the procedural criticisms of the Broward County sheriff department. The cops were alarmed that the deputies were still standing around several minutes after arriving to the scene. Parents were furious.

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/…/bso-deputies…/Manage

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Many people in Florida seemed remarkably eager to “steamroll through” a new $50 million or $100 million law. What about accountability for the list of concerns clearly stated by several students and at least one teacher (I only saw video of one teacher)? If you personally care about the concerns raised by ALL of injured teachers, injured students, and the families of slain students, so be it.

if you ignored all of their concerns to instead focus on CNN (and their chosen “instant celebrities” of David Hogg and Emma Gonzalez), so be it.

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· Reply · 2h

David Gilliard

David Gilliard I think it boils down to a new way of parenting…going soft if you will… parents nowadays preach “turn the other cheek…avoid confrontation” which allows a bully to torment a kid to the point he snaps and does something like this. Not so many years ago…the bully/s who tormented this kid would have gotten their ass kicked. But nowadays it festers and goes unhandled..until the bullied child snaps…

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Everett Young

Everett Young I find this comment odd. Got some evidence to back this up?

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David Gilliard

David Gilliard Everett Young yeah…the droves of parents of my kids’ friends who I see/hear constantly going soft on their kids. No one drags a bully out behind the school yard anymore. Therefore the bully continues his ways. I also think that far over reaching use of anti-depressant type meds likely plays a role in it as well. It’s NEVER a good thing to let pressure build up in a covered pot. Not sure why you’d see it as “odd”

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David Gilliard

David Gilliard I’d MUCH rather my kid be disciplined for kicking some kids ass than to let it fester to the point my kid feels his ONLY option is to shoot someone

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Everett Young

Everett Young Just struck mr that way. Prevalence of antidepressants seems like a much more likely culprit, just to me at least. I tend to be suspicious of “kids these days” or “parents these days” kinds of explanations. I think those things change less, and have smaller effects, than people tend to think.

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David Gilliard

David Gilliard Everett Young you may be right. It’s my take though that parenting across the board has gone soft. I see it in almost every aspect of kids these days

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· Reply · 23h

David Gilliard

David Gilliard Honestly
It’s not just in the area of parenting I see it….it’s more across the board. We as a nation have gotten fairly soft… overly sensitive and quick to whine about shit as opposed to taking action. Sort of a “let someone else handle it” vibe

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· Reply · 23h

David Gilliard

David Gilliard Everett Young are you around many kids in your everyday life?

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· Reply · 23h

Everett Young

Everett Young Haha. Well, what are you seeing in kids these days? In teens, statistically, teen pregnancy is down, crime is down, drug abuse is down, stuff like that. I taught university students for a few years. Kids seemed fine. I have two children and I’m around other children. Not sure the kids whose parents are “hard on them” are any different than the ones with more nurturant parents. I don’t really see kids as rotten, but I know a lot of people do…and always have.

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Everett Young

Everett Young Also, a lot depends on what you consider “whining.” People who are proud about how hard they are on their kids and how hard their parents were on them often strike me as the whiniest people in the world…but I suspect they would not consider their own complaints to be “whining,” but instead to be standing up for themselves. “Whining” is when OTHER people stand up for themselves.

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· Reply · 22h

David Gilliard

David Gilliard Everett Young I don’t think it’s a matter of needing to be “hard on them”. But the whole politically correct thing has been taken to an extreme. As a kid…You can’t EVER offend anyone or you’re going to hell… much less whip SOMEONES ass who NEEDS it. The kid who tormented that shooter telling him stuff like “I can smell you” needed his ass kicked. And he would have gotten it when I was in school…then he would have stopped… that’s my take for what it’s worth

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· Reply · 22h

Everett Young

Everett Young Well, I do like seeing bullies get comeuppance

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Drew Watson

Drew Watson I spent the morning reading about metal detectors as a possible part of the solution and thought this was worth mentioning here. It appears from the data (admittedly not entirely conclusive), that putting aside the probably impossible at present (consensus on common sense gun control, transformation of our mental healthy systems, agreement on causality), that “going soft” is literally one of the most effective strategies for preventing violence in schools: teaching faculty conflict resolution and de-escalation techniques, rather than encouraging students to beat each others’ asses for calling one another stinky. Conflict resolution and de-escalation training appear to work better than hardening schools with metal detectors, etc. and using harsh/physical punishment. Admittedly, I’m not a dad and have little anecdotal evidence to add. Looking for solutions that enough of us can agree upon to take action.

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· Reply · 6h

Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan Everett Young I was bullied all the time and then my dad taught me how to throw a punch. It stopped

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan I feel like everyone was bullied at some point. We have a gun and health crisis. Aren’t a bunch of kids on drugs now Adderall etc? We just called it hyperactivity and our parents locked us outside to climb trees and ride bikes. I don’t know this country is becoming very fucked up.

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Everett Young

Everett Young Those drugs are probably overprescribed, but for some people, they are indeed lifesavers. I got bullied constantly in middle school. I did once punch a bully, and yes, the bullying stopped.

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· Reply · 4h

Everett Young

Everett Young It took every bit of courage I had to do that. Not everyone is able to get themselves to do it. Bullying victims should certainly not feel the onus is on them to stop the bullying–although, for my own kid, I would coach her to hit back and let her know I’ll have her back in the principal’s office.

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan I’m not a parent but I did help raise my younger siblings. I guess parents are partly responsible. They’d have to be

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Everett Young

Everett Young I would also let her know that, if she couldn’t bring herself to hit back, I will NEVER blame her for “letting the bullying continue.”

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Everett Young

Everett Young My parenting would be: “There is something you can do about this. If you can get the courage, fight back, hard. I promise you won’t die. However, I also realize it’s not easy to get yourself to do this. I hope you’ll try to fight back, and if you get in trouble for doing it, I have your back. But if you just don’t find you have the courage, that’s NOT something wrong with you.”

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· Reply · 4h

Drew Watson

Drew Watson My elementary school had this sort of let them work it out policy. It nearly got me killed as a small 5 year old in a class of six year olds. I have always sucked at fighting, but being bullied and punched made me a meaner child and I know I passed on a lot if that anger to other “weaker” kids later.

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Lisa Nolan

Lisa Nolan Agreed and I did more talking than striking. Girls were esp brutal they like to pull hair. Thankfully I have a horse tail on my head and it doesn’t hurt. And yes you have to prepare to be punched. It’s not great human interaction but it was reality in middle school and high school. Drew I was also younger and smaller I didn’t hurt anyone that didn’t deserve it.

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· Reply · 4h

Drew Watson

Drew Watson I think that sort of environment probably encourages kids that can’t fight to leverage up (gun). I didn’t go that far, but I carried a knife, a roll of dimes or a spark plug probably until 8th grade. Adults should be doing better…all of us as a society, not just parents and teachers. I agree with Lisa that there are many problems, but the gun access and mental health problems are paramount.

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Everett Young

Everett Young Drew Watson great points Drew.

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Drew Watson

Drew Watson Likewise Everett and Lisa.

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