September 13, 2012




about words


Welcome to the About Words website. Below is a brief audio introduction to this site.

Did you know that one of the most popular words on the internet is God?

My Google Profile

on the linguistic invention of a “hell” of fiery rage

October 9, 2016

The below content is from a public thread on Facebook. I will put my first comment below in ALL CAPS to show where the original comment ends.

Jacob M. Wright wrote:

The word “Hell” is not in the Bible. “Gehenna” is. “Hell” is a mistranslation. “Gehenna” is the right translation. Either you’re ignorant of this, or you’ve read it and yet choose to deliberately go with the mistranslation. Now you know.

The concept of “hell”, or eternal torment in the afterlife is literally and exactly nowhere in the Old Testament. “Gehenna” however is in the OT just a few times. It is a literal place, right outside of Jerusalem, where Israel practiced gross idolatry and later became called “the Valley of Slaughter” because of its reputation of idolatry and loathsomeness. Dead bodies were thrown in Gehenna and they were eaten by worms and turned to ashes by fire.

This provides the context of Jesus usage of “Gehenna”. Jesus quotes Isaiah when talking about Gehenna when he says “where the worm doesn’t die and the fire is not quenched”. He’s referring back to the valley of Gehenna, directly quoting Isaiah 66:24, which says “…the dead bodies, the worms that eat them up will not die and the fire that consumes them will not be quenched.” This literally happened. Dead bodies were eaten up by unquenchable fire and worms fed on the dead bodies until they were consumed to nothing. Interesting thing is, go to that Valley of Slaughter today and look in it and you will not see the fire still burning nor will you see immortal worms feeding on miraculously preserved dead bodies. The bodies are gone, the worms are gone, the fire is gone. The point is that the fire would not be deterred in burning up the dead bodies to nothing, the worms would not be deterred in eating up the dead bodies to nothing. And keep in mind these are mortal dead bodies in this life, not immortal conscious souls in the afterlife.

To read eternal torment into that is either gross ignorance or deliberate deception.

Even “eternal fire” or “eternal punishment” is a mistranslation, as “eternal” is a mistranslation of the Greek word “aionios”, which does not mean “never-ending” or anything of the sort. It means “of the age to come”, or to Plato, who may have invented the word, it means something which has its source in God and the unseen realm. It has nothing to do with ongoing, never-ending time.

There is literally no verse in scripture that can prop up the ridiculous, pagan, non-Jewish concept of eternal torment.

Spread the word to try to get rid of the ignorance on this issue.

This is not some new politically correct idea that people are making up because they don’t like hard biblical truths. There is a long list of early fathers who rejected eternal torment because they understood these correct meanings of words, they didn’t believe in the immortality of the soul (a pagan Greek belief), they had a touch of sanity (a good thing to have for theology), and they recognized that the scriptures either taught conditional immortality and/or final universal reconciliation. Eternal torment was the minority belief in the early church, and amongst those who were less familiar with the original meanings of the text. It did not become the prominent belief until after 500 AD, with the help of the violent organized institutional church established under Constantine.

Hell is not a good translation of Gehenna and it never will be. Gehenna was a real place with a real history in the Jewish mind, and it must be read in that context. Once it is read in that context, the idea of eternal torment falls to pieces, as it should.

I predict now that people will come on here quoting mistranslated verses to try to prop up their tradition of eternal torment. Most of these kind of people are not studied nor do they think very hard or honestly on these kinds of issues. They just accept what they are told. Nor have they probably ever had a dearly loved one that died an unbeliever. For them, it is completely fine that a bunch of dumb humans they don’t know nor have empathy for burn alive forever. Such a thing they wouldn’t give a second thought or shed one tear over. They simply must protect the only paradigm they know.


Below is a reference to hell in the New Testament. Hell (Gehenna) is a label for a state of rage or contempt.

“And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.”


Here are several verses of that chapter, again with hell as the state of “burning” eternally with rage (and guilt / shame):

1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a [a]stricter judgment. 2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in [b]what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well. 3 Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. 4 Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. 5 So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things.

See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! 6 And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body [meaning the congregation as in “the body of christ(endom)], and sets on fire the course of our [c]life, and is set on fire by [d]hell. 7 For every [e]species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human [f]race. 8 But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. 9 With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; 10 from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing….

Also, like stories of Santa Claus, some stories are intended primarily to influence the experience and behaviors of the audience, not to be taken as literal truth. Huge amounts of the Hebrew scriptural tradition are considered by many Jews to be only parables, not history.

If a story is based on truth, so be it. Isaiah and many others warned people to focus on the “spirit” of a teaching, not on the “letter” (the literal accuracy). So, we can see gross errors in the “Christian goyim idolaters” who worship “the letter of the law.”

They say “thou shall not lie.” That is not right. It is a prohibition of perjury (false testimony).

They say “thou shall not kill.” That is not right either.

It is “thou shall not murder.” Clearly, killing was very common: “there is a time to kill and a time to heal, a time for war and for peace, a time for hate and for love.” That is from Ecclesiastes chapter 3 (Old Testament).

JH added: Yeah well we have a whole flock of people taking every word of the Bible literally.

JR continues: They take a few words of the Bible literally and ignore the rest. They may completely ignore Jesus quoting Isaiah on many important points about fixating on language and “worshiping with only the lips and not the heart.”

Is there value to ancient European (non-Hebrew) traditions about Hades, Pluto, and a goddess named Hel? Some say so….

JH responded:

My husband studied at Westmont he hates it when people pick out verses without context, but unfortunately he’s too busy to comment😦 But I say we shouldn’t need to become an expert in interpreting the Bible to know God. And so many times I read something and I’m look it says this! then he tells me well you have to understand the audience and who Jesus was talking to and what he was addressing was different than it is now. And blah blah blah, so then I say well then I’m just going to make love my religion. Solves all language problems.


I appreciate your perspective, Janelle. It is not consistent with many other traditions though.

Take the three Greek words “Eros, agape, and Philia” and then translate them all as “love.” What just happened? A significant decrease in precision.

Respect is a better label for my religion (than “love”), which includes respect for logic and as well for hysteria and guilt. The religion about “unconditional love” is, how most people relate to it, actually a program for perfectionistic guilt. It is unhealthy.

It lacks healthy boundaries. It lacks self respect.

Unconditional love doesn’t mean you let people walk all over you in fact just the opposite if you have love for yourself then you won’t allow yourself to become a door mat.


Also, within the religion of respect, there are no language problems. There is language and either a respect for language or not.

Yes well English is terrible at describing love!!! Actually my husband did an awesome talk on those words and it was amazing. English falls short.

GM: Hell was invented by the catholic church as a way of keeping stupid people in line. Most people were deprived of education (not allowed to read) in order to keep them stupid. Both strategies are still used to some extent today.

JR: Prior to the Catholic Church, there were many traditions with afterlifes and underworlds and so on, including the European traditions relating to Hades, Pluto, and Hel.

GM: Yep. But usually only the one for everybody. (Greek hades was for everyone)

Egyptians believed that only people who had lived a good life (as measured by the feather of truth) would get to live for eternity in the afterlife (that predates christianity by thousands of years).

As far as I’m aware, the Catholic church was the first to determine a person’s eternal fate by the measure of their piety.


To GM, the Egyptian goddess who weighed the heart at death was Maat (as I recall). It would be fair to say that Maat was the precedent for St. Peter waiting at the gates of heaven to announce the goodness of someone and send them either to heaven or hell.

The heart was weighed against a feather to test for goodness. Maat is also depicted as holding a scale, wearing a blindfold, and carrying a sword. She is also known as justitia, portia, and “lady justice.”

Astrologers call her “Libra.”

Many “Christian idolaters” do not understand the most basic teachings in the Hebrew scripture of Genesis, such as that language is what divides “day from night, light from darkness, and heaven from earth.”

How does one year end and another begin? It is entirely a matter of language.

There is no substance to silence or darkness or stillness. These are just “linguistic conveniences” (or “poetry”).

The idea that “the darkness cannot darken a lamp” is not an obscure, mysterious reference. It is a casual, playful reference to the fact that “darkness” is not a something, but merely a label for the absence of light.

Whether intentionally or not, many Christian teachings produce “arrogant tools” who have hysterical contempt for “those stupid people over there.” Their self-contempt is projected all over.

For the one with inner contempt and self-disgust, there will be endless (as in countless) perceptions that will trigger a projection of disgust and contempt at “the disgusting thing out there that is CAUSING me shame.” They do not know the gospel of forgiveness and respect.

However, for the one who is pure, all things are pure. There is nothing unclean in itself, but if one relates to it as unclean, then it is unclean for YOU.

Do you recognize the verses I was just referencing?

The second is this:


I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean.

The first:


To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

Are you giving a sermon J R??🙂 I’m not sure who you are speaking to. I have some contempt because I spent almost my entire childhood being taught one way to see things… (presbyterian) Believe in Jesus or go to hell for your sins!!!

Janelle, I do not think you were properly taught. There is a way to “see things” that involves either experiencing the hell of eternal contempt or “believing in Jesus.” You could forgive those who may have misled you… or do something else.

To “relax” contempt may be rather intimidating for many people. Contempt can be so very familiar!

Some people “make it in to their religion” (even while preaching about love & “how those other people should love me”).

So, back to Maat, when someone is “lighthearted,” then they will not even have as much weight of guilt on their conscience as a single feather. The feather will weigh more than “their heart.”

This is not about the physical organ, but the weight of contempt as distinct from a “spirit of innocence, lightheartedness, purity, respect, etc….”

However, the one who is guilty / impure / has not forgiven themselves… will be “chopped.” (I am making reference to a TV game show that is a cooking competition… but also making reference to the sword carried by “lady justice / the goddess justitia.”)

JH: Well to be honest I have dealt a lot with my contempt for how I was raised, and I recently have come full circle.This post kinda re-ignited it lol.

Janelle, you can experience repulsion and alarm at the lack of intelligence in certain teachings. Or, perhaps those teachings were in some way intelligent, even if still repulsive to you (or me).

But caution and repulsion do not require contempt, right? When I was ashamed of my naïveté at being intimidated and misled by “mainstream Christians,” then I had contempt for them. However, now I respect that, when I was younger, I was EVEN MORE naive than I later became. In other words, I have learned some stuff since being born.

Did I ever push an “ignorant spiritual perspective” on others? Maybe. Maybe for sure. Okay, for sure.

Mostly, we are made impure by social pressure. The traditional Hebrew culture does not have a teaching of a fundamental innate “original sin.”

Many Jews consider the New Testament authors Matthew and Paul to be clear cases of “apostasy” (heresy), especially the ideas of humans as fundamentally “slaves to sin.” There are fundamental risks of hysteria and hypocrisy and contempt, but not a fundamental, natural presence.

The author Luke also is big on “slave to sin” and that is key to the “pitch” of salvation through the institutional church. Likewise, socialists see government as the only access to “political salvation.”

In fact, many analysts suggest that Christianity was a plot (perhaps by Jews) to create a culture of people who were spiritually enslaved but also ashamed of spiritual slavery, so that they would neglect to be conscious of what was otherwise very obvious.

The idea of institutional salvation begins with the church and then extends throughout the holy empire. All the local warlords (monarchs and their prime *ministers*) who have been crowned by bishops (the agents of the “king of kings” in Rome) will be the great saints who offer political and economic salvation to the masses (while oppressing them).

Throughout the world, “the holy empire of the star” has armed men wearing six-pointed stars (such as sheriff deputies) and pentagrams (city cops, US marshals, etc). Through a veil of spiritual sorcery, the masses are ritually blinded to the simple reality by the indoctrination rituals of churches and the mass media and of course schools (including “science” classrooms).

JH wrote: Interesting. Yeah it is hard to get outside of indoctrination. I mostly just question beliefs now.

TB wrote: Buddhism = your beliefs are what make you suffer. Let go of them, believe nothing. Just observe

Hysterical attachment to presumptions is risky. Presumptions themselves are not so risky.

If I innocently presume, but then I am corrected by observation, then that is simple enough. The bigger problem is the terror that leads to clinging to presumptions.

Negligence leads to disappointment and frustration. That is good though because those lead naturally to attentiveness / mindfulness.

A deeper layer is the terror (pre-occupation / fixation) that is a factor especially in certain socially-reinforced presumptions. To resolve those terrors and traumas and shames, that is when the value of the sangha is huge (sangha = being around wise, cautious people).

I consider indoctrination rituals fascinating. We can look at what the Roman Catholic Church did hundreds of years ago for the training of missionaries to go out and spread the faith. We can study Tavistock and Edward Bernays and the Rockefellers and Eugene Debbs and John Dewey.

From the innovations of the “sacra congregation de propaganda fide” (spreading of the faith), modified indoctrination rituals were created for mainstream schools. Students were socially pressured to memorize “science” and then blindly repeat the doctrines ABOUT science on a test (in order to receive social validation).

That is how anti-scientific attitudes were created in the name of science, with hysteria about an essential nutrient called cholesterol plus demonic possession by invading “living entities” such as cancer and diabetes and scurvy and asthma.

JH: Yeah I agree. Have you read Ivan Illich’s deschooling society by chance?


I do not recall that title. Schooling is essential to the current efficiency of systems of social oppression.

That was all by design. The Rockefellers were very focused on destroying the emergence of holistic medicine in the 19th century in the US because it was bad for their business. Their business was crude oil and a big seller was petrochemical pharmaceutical drugs. They needed a steady market for drug addicts, so they made some careful donations to various medical schools.

They took the business model from their allies among British royalty, whose primary business has been opium for centuries (including opium derivatives like OxyContin, morphine, and heroin). The opium wars in the 1800s were all about the British invading China to keep their heroin profits flowing. The US navy and French navy also assisted the British in demolishing the Chinese military defenses.

GM adds:Some of you might be interested in this blog I wrote last night.

TB: Gavin [that article] is absolutely fantastic. I think you’ve tackled one of the biggest issues for many people in their quest for critical thinking… and done so in a way that is understandable, relatable, and highly intelligent. I loved many phrases along the way, and find deep resonance with your thought patterns. I’ll share this, too, and I hope it spreads far and wide.

GM: Thanks, Travis. that means a lot to me

I will share that article, GM. I liked it. I am a big fan of being attentive to “embedded linguistic presumptions.”

I like the idea (my paraphrasing) that organic life is what happens when light hits inorganic matter for a long enough time. I also like the section on the brain (as it relates to lobe isolation as well as parasites).

GM: Thanks🙂

I might tidy up the conclusion. I got a bit tired yesterday 😞

(a semi-related subthread:)

Janelle Hoxie
Janelle Hoxie Very interesting, good arguments! I still would like to believe that our essence lives on somehow🙂 And then maybe you could come up with an explanation for near death experiences. There is this lady I follow Anita Moorjani, who is an inspiration to me, that went into a coma from terminal lymphoma her organs were shutting down and felt unconditional love for the first time, chose to come back and healed within weeks… completely unexplained by science.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · Yesterday at 8:20am
Hide 13 Replies
Travis Burch
Travis Burch I don’t know what we can know for sure, except that unconditional love is the only thing that makes any sense at all….even as the cheetah eats the antelope, it’s still there… I don’t know why
Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 8:30am
Travis Burch
Travis Burch I also like how Thich Naht Hanh talks about how when the cloud rains and nourishes the flower, the cloud isn’t gone, it lives on in the flower
Unlike · Reply · 3 · Yesterday at 8:31am · Edited
Travis Burch
Travis Burch Although I’d hardly suggest with any confidence that that’s the limitation of our “abiliity” to endure beyond our being’s death… But if that’s how we live on, it’s beautiful.
Like · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 8:35am · Edited
Janelle Hoxie
Janelle Hoxie That is beautiful! And if we think of energy and vibration I think love would definitely have a higher vibration than hate.
Like · Reply · Yesterday at 8:58am
Gavin Morrice
Gavin Morrice Thanks Janelle.

I think that sense of universal connectedness and love comes from the right hemisphere in the brain….See More

My stroke of insight
Jill Bolte Taylor got a research opportunity few brain scientists would wish for: She had a…
Unlike · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 9:03am
Travis Burch
Travis Burch Yes! Think about how hate necessitates or invokes cortisol and acute or even chronic stress… which is the opposite of a low stress state… and low stress is high energy. So love is probably the highest state to store energy in a cell and a body. One might say we run fastest when we are afraid of, say, a lion chasing us, but I think we might find ourselves become even more superhuman in a situation where we needed to rescue a child, or our child. Perfect love drives out fear, and I think that’s where our greatest energy potential lies. Great thoughts Janelle!
Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 9:03am
Stephanie Peña
Stephanie Peña My son had a similar experience Janelle. Before his transplant he got the flu which almost killed him. He was so sick he had to be air lifted from PHX Children’s to Colorado Children’s and we were told he probably won’t make it to CO (they didn’t even want to air lift him but I threw such a crazy fit they finally gave in). He got to a point where he was only able to take in tiny puffs of air (his last breaths) and the flight crew was trying to intubate him, but there was too much turbulence, so one of the nurses said “fuck it, lets pray” so we all did and with in 30 seconds he was completely healed (from the flu). We landed in Colorado and went to the ICU and the docs were like “why are you guys here?” It was pretty incredible healing experience all brought on by love and intention.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · Yesterday at 9:03am
Travis Burch
Travis Burch Three simultaneous posts!
Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 9:03am
Janelle Hoxie
Janelle Hoxie Yes, that fear state… I am doing everything I possibly can to get out of that fear state, it is torture! Love is the state I want to be in. Not that I am denying emotion, but I really believe the chemicals that go along with fear lead to sickness.
Like · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 9:20am
Janelle Hoxie
Janelle Hoxie Stephanie Peña wow! thanks for sharing that, what an intense moment that was!
Like · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 9:21am
Travis Burch
Travis Burch I believe denying raw emotion is a great path to love deficiency
Like · Reply · 2 · Yesterday at 9:38am
Janelle Hoxie
Janelle Hoxie Yeah, I’m learning how to accept suffering and emotions that arise, but not coming from a place of fear. One of the ways I healed my panic disorder is to accept the panic, I’ve had times where I was fighting it and fighting it and that seems to feed into it, but then when I just accept what it is, everything just calms back down again within minutes. I was just thinking about that last night. To accept that being human is to suffer is to transcend.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · Yesterday at 9:43am
Travis Burch
Travis Burch very well said, janelle!
Like · Reply · 1 · Yesterday at 9:48am

JR: Janelle, if we compare panic to a place (like “coming from a PLACE of panic”), that implies disorderliness. I am not aware of any way to extract panic from hyperventilation / neurological hypoxia… or to extract hyperventilation from panic.

Simple fear, however, is “a place” of great efficiency. If I am startled in to alertness by an unexpected sound, that fright or fear can correspond to very high efficiency, as in “getting in the zone.” For someone not already “in the zone,” fear is a very common pathway to getting in the zone.

Distress and shame and pre-occupation / distraction / paranoia do not correspond to high efficiency or perceptiveness. Those tends to be states of low neurological efficiency.

JH: Interesting way of looking at it, are you saying you can’t take panic away from hyperventilating? I’ve been studying panic disorders for 2 yrs, the only way I could ever get a hold of it is changing my thoughts, accept that adrenaline is running through my veins but not to panic about it.

I realize fear is useful it is a primitive way to motivate you to action. I have extremely sensitive fear responses. My nervous system reacts so instantaneously!! Supposedly this is a good thing I’m not sure. But panic attacks that happen for no apparent reason made me generally fearful in life which means constant fight or flight. I’d rather live life fearlessly.

JR: Janelle, I respect fear. I am not afraid of it, which is to say that I am completely relaxed in regard to whether I experience fear or not. If there is potential danger, I want to have the advantage of alertness to accurately assess dangers and risks. Then, any risks can be addressed (whether by avoiding from some potential danger or neutralizing it etc).

As for “panic attacks,” consider that there is no “attack.” Same for asthma “attacks” and anxiety “attacks” and even heart “attacks.”

When a brain is low on oxygen, it can send signals to “breathe faster,” which is a favorable reflex in some cases. However, it is also valuable sometimes to slow down the rate of breathing. Slower, calmer breathing allows for the oxygen to get out of the bloodstream and in to the brain cells (and other cells beyond the blood stream).

This principle has been recognized for a very long time (like for thousands of years in meditation practices across many cultures), although the specific biochemical mechanism of why slowing down the breath can be so helpful was only documented in 1904. More: https://jrfibonacci.wordpress.com/2014/10/18/how-to-ward-off-demonic-attacks-of-panic-by-slowing-down-your-breath/

It is possible for someone to get more frazzled (as in grumpy, jumpy, etc), such as by lack of sleep. Most anyone who has raised or watched young children know the value of “noticing when they NEED a nap.”

It is also possible for someone who has been “jumpy” for years or even decades to become a “grounded person” (or a “mellow” person). When we are dealing with neurological functionality, that means electrons and oxygen and all those other very important components.

There is a video in a subthread above (as I recall) about a lady named Jill who studied strokes, and then had a stroke, then recovered fully. I also had a similar “neurological disaster” and recovered quite well.

JH: Yeah I don’t like the terminology, its not like something is attacking my body, I understand the mechanism quite well now. And do use breathing to get out of it as well. But the first trigger for me is never because I was just hyperventilating and thus the panic happened. Maybe I was shallowly breathing because of being anxious or worried or fearful.

JR: Since 1904 when the biochemical mechanism was established, there has been a lot of research on the huge “downline” of consequences to “sub-optimal” breathing (which is VERY common).

Anyone who breaths through their mouth most of the time (including while sleeping) can benefit by retraining their breathing. There are many other issues of course that can be factors.

Again, some people can easily hold their breath for three to four minutes (and repeatedly, like while exerting themselves vigorously underwater most of the time for twenty minutes straight while only coming up for a breath a few times). So, not only is breathing a method to decrease or increase panic / distress, but to measure broader neurological health.

Why it is heroic to shame people for “anti-hysteria hysteria”

October 1, 2016

The foundation of social indoctrination is pressure to relate to certain activities as inherently glorious and to relate to certain activities as inherently deplorable (shameful, deserving of scorn and contempt and perhaps a public ritual of human sacrifice). In other words, intimidation is central to the whole dynamic. However, if “bullying” is defined as shameful, then whatever “the good guys” do cannot be bullying. Why? Because we may have identified some folks as “fundamentally good,” like because they are “our guys.”

For instance, if there is some kind of anti-government controversy in Kuwait, but then the army of Iraq goes in to fulfill a promise made in a treaty to “provide assistance to their official ally who officially invited them to provide such assistance,” then that might be labeled by some as an “invasion” and a “violation of the border.” But if the British army goes in to “defend” Kuwait from the “invading Iraqis,” then that is a case of the British “providing assistance.” If there was no treaty in which the Kuwaitis had already invited the British to “defend” them, then of course the British will find someone in Kuwait to thank them for “providing assistance.”

Was there a “human rights violation” in Kuwait (to which the Iraqis were heroically responding)? Even if there was, how exactly did that get to be the “business” of the Iraqis (or the British)? Well, some people “just make it their business.”

So, imagine that someone in Kuwait makes up some definitions of “human rights,” then concludes that the British royals are “violating the human rights” of the British subjects. What should they do next? Should they bomb some British civilians “in order to protect the civilians from being bullied by the British royals?”

The point here is that when there is a primary commitment to reinforcing the idea that certain people are “fundamentally good” (or that certain people are “fundamentally bad”), then that “commitment bias” will organize all the commentary that follows. The commentary will predictably support the “core narrative.”

Details that support the primary commitment will be emphasized (or invented). Details that are contrary to the primary commitment will be ignored or minimized or even ridiculed.

So, “our guys” are fundamentally good. In fact, our guys are fundamentally the best guys of all guys who have ever been guys.


But then there is an “isolated case” in which it is clear that our guys were not good “that one time.” Well, we will resist that idea for a while (while pretending not to resist it) and then eventually erupt in outrage and regret, demanding justice.

Did you know that one major bank had a policy that allowed for lots of cases of corruption? HSBC (which is a British-owned Chinese bank) was caught *illegally* laundering drug money.

However, I am sure that it is an isolated case. Other banks do not do similar things of course, right? Further, HSBC is obviously not a bank that was set up for the specific purpose of laundering money from sales of opium and heroin by the British to the Chinese, right?

Keep in mind that when we “already know” that certain people are “fundamentally good,” then that means that all of the behaviors that we have been programmed and intimidated in to labeling as “fundamentally good” must be perfectly descriptive of the behaviors of that entire group of people. HSBC must be honest. I do not mean just in the future. HSBC must have always been honest. Sure, there was that one isolated case when they repeatedly broke their own rules, but that was an isolated case.

They even formed a committee to investigate whether or not anyone in HSBC had ever been involved in any wrong-doing and of course the conclusion was “not even a little.” Okay, fine, maybe a century or two later we can admit that HSBC was set up from the beginning as a business enterprise to help the British conduct sales of opium to the Chinese, but I am sure that they have totally reformed such awful practices, right? It’s not like the British royals are still involved in the international trafficking of heroin or cocaine, right?

Okay, fine, maybe they have not “reformed” such practices (and maybe they have no intention of changing the foundation of their business model). However, as someone blindly loyal to the social indoctrination about honesty and good intentions, WE *must* reform our local government here in Iraq so that our government is more like “how our government should have always been” (according to the doctrines that our governments spread in order to distract us from the fundamental practices of their business model).

I mean, of course our government has always been the best ever, because I know that our guys are good guys and our flag is a good flag and our national anthem is basically the best national anthem in the entire history of national anthems. For instance, our government (unlike ALL of the others) is against propaganda and indoctrination and intimidation and extortion.

Plus, those are just a few examples. I could give a VERY long list of examples of things that (our government has told us that) our government is “against.”

I was talking to an undercover cop the other day about how deception is wrong. The cop totally agreed with me. I mean, that was before I knew that they were a cop pretending not to be a cop, but keep in mind that our guys are fundamentally good guys, right?

Our government (here in Kuwait… or wherever we are) would obviously not program us to relate to slavery as shameful in order to shame us in to not noticing our own slavery, right? We are NOT slaves!

However, we are pumped with social hysterias. Poetically, it might be more accurate to compare us to zombies than to compare us to slaves. Maybe we are slightly hypnotized or brainwashed or “spiritually asleep.” Probably not, but of course it is technically possible.

So, we may have been just slightly programmed to identify ourselves with slaves (like in a sympathetic way). However, that does not make us slaves. That just glorifies the idea of being a slave who is unjustly victimized and deserves sympathy and probably some external salvation (like the Kuwaiti armies gloriously going to Britain to liberate the people of Britain from slavery).

Plus the evil Iraqis were trying to support the British royals in their unfair concentration of wealth. So, when the Iraqi troops arrived, that was obviously an invasion since they are fundamentally bad. So, then the Kuwaitis basically had to come in to Britain to assist the people of Britain in resisting the invading Iraqis. When the Kuwaiti troops arrived, they were liberating the British from the tyranny and injustice of the British royals, who are slightly more wealthy than the average British citizen although the British royals have never had to work an 8-hour day in their entire life.

As for the accusations that the Kuwaitis were only liberating the British in order to sell them oil and opiates (like morphine, oxycontin, and heroin), I do admit that the accusations might be true. However, those accusations are also clearly ridiculous since we already know that all of these Kuwaiti guys are fundamentally good. Why would the Kuwaitis go all the way to Britain to liberate them and then just sell them opiates? It just doesn’t make any sense.

Why would the Kuwaitis set up a bank to assist in the sale of oil and opiates to the British? That is silly.

Sure, there was that one time, I think it was like 1829, when the Kuwaitis sent their navy to make sure that the British were unable to criminalize the importation of opium by the Kuwaitis. But that was obviously just one isolated case, plus they even sent an apology letter (along with a big shipment of opium AS A GIFT).

When the Apache tribe invaded Kuwait in 1674, the Kuwaitis did not have a single leader in whom they would give the power to sell the entire nation of Kuwait in to slavery to the Apaches. However, the Apaches are fundamentally good guys who love democracy, so they found a Kuwaiti who they were confident they could control and then they set up elections so that the people of Kuwait could empower someone with the ability to sign a treaty with the Apaches
to basically sell Kuwait to the Apaches.

I know that sounds a little shady, but keep in mind that the Apaches are fundamentally good guys because something about democracy. Also, consider this important point: something about justice or injustice or whatever.

Liberation by military force is what the good guys do. Invasions are only done by bad people.

For instance, when the British asked the US to invade Germany in “the first World War,” that was an act of liberating the British. Even though there were no British people actually in Germany, that was still an act of liberation because the US was promoting the INTERESTS of the British in regard to control of the German territory and resources and population.

See, that is totally different. Plus, honesty and democracy and justice are fundamentally good and that is why our guys are the best guys ever at being guys. Also, keep in mind something about bravery and heroically killing people who obviously deserved to die.

It is shameful to just kill civilians out of like greed and stuff. That is why our guys are fundamentally good and are basically the best liberators ever.

Also, it is important to reform our system to reverse the slightly corrupt things that have happened in the last 64,000 years. For instance, our money is fake, which it should not be, because it should be real.

Sure, you may have also been programmed to label some money as “fake,” but if a court system imposes debts on people and then demands payment in a certain form, then that can create real demand for that payment form. Also, our good guys are good guys, and since propaganda is shameful, our guys never use propaganda to trick you in to thinking that only certain kinds of money are real.

So if you take a confederate dollar, it is real money, but has no court system of extortion to create public demand for that sacred object (or that once-sacred object). It is now basically worthless in terms of purchasing power (except as a rare collector’s item to be kept in museums as a piece of historical trivia). However, it is a real instance of money, even though there is no court system of extortion creating widespread public demand for that kind of sacred object.

If the court warlords demand payment in silver, that increases demand for silver. Same if they demand diamonds. Same if they demand confederate dollars.

However, the holy extortion specialists no longer demand confederate dollars for the debts that they invent “out of thin air.” So, there is NO LONGER any widespread, steady public demand for that sacred object (although a long time ago in a particular section of planet earth, those sacred objects were the objects that were the best sacred objects ever in the history of sacred objects).

So maybe the rulers have brainwashed a lot of folks that we could poetically call zombies or even slaves, then hysterically argue about which labels are the most sacred. I will leave such arguing to those who insist that they should not be zombies because that is shameful. Plus, we already know that the good guys that are in charge of our holy government would never do something so unholy as to indoctrinate us as to which doctrines are sacred and which doctrines are not even doctrines because they are just fundamentally true.


Rose and JR discuss “toying with others” vs “universal altruism”

September 6, 2016
(Below, it is hard to see where one subthread ends and the next begins, although the overall exchange is still pretty clear.)

I don’t think anyone’s primary reason for doing anything is to hurt an other or others, corporations either. They want success fo themselves, protection for their family, or other things along those lines. Unfortunately the way they go about it, an other or others may get hurt, and possibly they know, and continue. Sometimes perhaps they don’t know or care ever. Point? Anyone can be understood, if they want to be, i hope! Lol

Jeff Cantley

Jeff Cantley You don’t have that purpose. 20% of the population does. About 10% of them are really bad people.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene SecrestYeah. I know some people are just “purely” bad. Thanks, Jeff

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn For soldiers, it is pretty normal to bomb civilians.


Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYes, but they do it for money and to make their own families proud and happy etc. So the purpose may be more for what they feel are positive reasons? I do think it’s pretty nuts & irresponsible to join in a fight when you don’t know 1st hand if the other side are actually bad.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Bad” is often irrelevant. After a lion rips out the throat of an antelope, the pack of hyena come to bully the lion in to abandoning the carcass to the pack.

For the same simple reason of (perceived) military superiority, the British monarchy arranged for their own navy plus the navy of France and of the United States to attack China in the early 19th century. Why? Because they could.

why else? Because the Chinese government was trying to stop the British government from selling opium to the people of China.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe British created an alliance with other powerful bullies to defeat the Chinese military.

When the Israelite army led by Moses massacred the neighboring midianites, they captured 16,000 young virgin girls as slaves. Why not just kill them too? Because they were productive (for bearing children).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAfter massacring all the other midianites (all males of any age and all females past puberty), did the Israelites abandon the 675,000 sheep of the midianites, plus the cattle and donkeys and all their gold? No, they collected all of that.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhy did they invade? Because they had a better military capacity than their target and their target had a lot of wealth that was not “adequately” defended.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestSee? No one kills to kill. They kill to eat, to have underage girls, to get donkeys and cattle, to have fun with other bullies. There’s always another reason.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAh… That so your angle. Well, I am confident that there are people who kill “just to prove that they can.” Then there was my housecat who used to “play” with lizards until the lizards died. The cat usually would not even eat them.

plus there are the elephants that run through field and kill thousands of innocent insects…..

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe US bombed civilians in Japan not to intimidate Japan, but to intimidate the rest of the world. Japan was already defeated.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestVery twisted webby world. True, some people just try to get away with things, but again perhaps on an unconscious level to raise their own hormones. Cats are natural killers to eat, when we feed them catfood, they don’t get to kill, and they miss that part of eating, so they kill anyway. Planting soy or wheat for vegetarians makes floods, famines, droughts, kills bugs, gophers, all to prove one is better than another by not killing cows. A paper was written detailing exactly how many lives. The guy got a lot of gruf for publishing that.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYep, they intimidated for control, probably not just to intimidate. People have hurt me just trying to control everyone. It does not fully work, but i guess it works to maim and kill to intimidate others often enough to gain more power. There’s usually more than one reason for everything.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWell sure hormones drive everything and then we humans often make up rationalization that support the pretenses our of social persona. Those rationalization are also driven by adrenalin and cortisol. Without those stress hormones, no one bothers to justify their own actions or to ridicule the actions of those whom they vilify to make themselves seem more “righteous.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnPeople do not actually care about dead cows or droughts or the inmates in the local Phoenix Arizona jail that are warehoused outside in tents and endure 118 degree temperatures with no air conditioning. We care about our egos and competing socially with others (which is whole point of the ego).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWe may get addicted to the validation of others for talking about how much we care about cows, but that is all just a Coping mechanism for distress. Thousands of cows could be getting slaughtered right now by knives or by an earthquake and I promise that I do not care at all about them… Or at least that is one possible persona / identity to present.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestExactly. Most find ego more important than goodness life death ..

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Goodness” is just an egoic concern. Cows and hyenas do not bother with conceptual idols like “goodness” because their social status does not depend on persona. It depends more on raw physical capacity.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYes. And goodness could not exist if evil did not exist. “Nothing really matters anymore”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThose are just labels in language.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestTitles, labels, used to justify anything someone does to another.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThere are basically two social imperatives: “whose approval or interest would I like to attract” and then “how do I attract them?”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnMany? Who does not want to create or maintain “social status?”

even people who are “rebelling against society” are operating from a conceptual model of “what is intrinsically right.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnRight and wrong are subjective. Subjectivities are not objective (not intrinsic).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHow do you earn entry in to heaven? By wearing a very modest bathing suit? By rebelling against the oppressors and breastfeeding in public?

The ego is a conceptual model of “who I am ( as distinct from how I am not).” It is a coping mechanism for social pressure. It is based on socially imposed categories about “how people should be.” That is why hypocrisy is so popular… People literally filter their own observations to maintain a particular narrative about themselves.

Plus, if I am operating from a narrative of powerless victim, then I am going to go around and construct a narrative of how there are however many villains.

The “victim” will find a way vilify someone else. They need to preserve their identity as the victim.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI was very clear that the Tibetan lama did not identify himself as a victim.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHe actually spoke with sympathy for the soldiers who were conducting the torture. He talked about blessing them and praying for them while they were torturing him and other people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHe said things more like this: “It was a very remarkable tragedy and there were many who suffered greatly during that period, even including many of the people involved in victimizing others.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhat about when people in the audience asked him questions like “don’t you ever wish that the Chinese had not invaded Tibet?”

“I focus my wishes on the future, not the past. I am grateful to have lived in Tibet for so long, then to have been received as a refugee in to Nepal and India, and right now to be here with you. Do you wish to be here right now with all of us in this auditorium? It is very safe socially and we have air conditioning too!”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Sir, this is Arizona.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Yes, I know. I liked California better. But it you prefer Arizona, then it is very lucky for you that you live here and not in California or Tibet!”

He added “it is very good if you experience grief and suffer in sympathy when you hear my story or the story of others who have survived tragedies. That is the beginning of your healing. Maybe it is even better if you experience gratitude and joy and laugh with us. That is the end of your healing.

Laugh with us. We are just refugees. We are not dead. I am not even 80 years old yet! This is probably my last trip to the US… And I am so glad to have spent this afternoon with all of you. I just wish you would have come to my talk yesterday in California so we did not have to drive all the way to Tucson. No, I am only joking.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Do you believe in reincarnation?”

“I admit that reincarnation is a very silly idea, although many ideas that seemed very silly to me at first have later seemed undeniable.”

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (end of subthread)
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I listened to a live in person Lecture by a Tibetan lama talking about being tortured by the invading Chinese soldiers. He talked about the sexual assaults of the soldiers against the Tibetan nuns and being forced to watch.

Hide 15 Replies
Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Rape is often done to dominate, to raise one’s own hormones, hate, idk, what does that have to do with this?

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Your original post was in regard to “hurting people just to hurt them.” The nuns were assaulted and the attacks were apparently so brutal that some did not survive. The monks were forced to watch because the soldiers apparently were trying to traumatized and “break” the monks, many of whom also did not survive the torture rituals.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The soldiers were ordered to perform the torture (under threat from their supervisors). However, there are cases in which torturers simply “toy with” their victims and whether the victims live or die is rather unimportant to the torturer… Like my cat just “toying” with a lizard “for fun.”

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Yes, they often don’t care if they kill, following orders or fear.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Or like the housecat, they just pounce and bite and tear… and then they may be surprised and disappointed when suddenly the corpse completely stops moving.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest It’s okay, they can find another squirmer.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Yeah, if there is still sunlight and perhaps only after licking their hair for nearly half an hour.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Then some driver hit my favorite pet dog and the driver did not even stop. What is it with people this millennium? Actually, that was last millennium… But you get the point.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Yes, people kill by accident and don’t notice nor care. Seems people are geting worse.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest My condolences on the loss of your dog. That pretty much happened to one of our dogs in 2012. 😦

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn That was around 1978. An interesting detail is that the death of the dog gave me a socially acceptable reason to grieve (an outlet for ALL of my disappointment). However, my mom was apparently pretty annoyed by my emotions, so she bought me another dog the next day.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn It can be pretty disturbing for someone who pretends not to be disappointed with their life to be around kids (or anyone else) who openly display grief.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest J R, yeah. Maybe why many parents say to an injured child that it’s alright, instead of acknowleging real injury.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Saying “it is alright” can promote calm in a child, which is often attractive to the adult. There is also the message to “be quiet” that can be conveyed through the words “that is pretty minor and you are such a big boy. Only little babies would cry about minor stuff like that. You are a big boy, right?”

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Aka guilt tripping

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Take the example of Vlad the impaler (aka Count Dracula, the local warlord in Transylvania operating under the supervision of the Vatican). Why did he torture and kill so many people and then leave them to rot on the poles in public? It was to intimidate and terrify. It is the same reason that the US bombed civilians in japan.

Hide 12 Replies
Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Funny, many think Vlad was just a story. Anything is just a story when one did not experience it themself.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn He was the most famous tyrant of the entire eastern front of the holy inquisition. Most people in the US (even Catholics) do not know the names of the top generals of any of the crusades… And why should they?

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest J R, they care about their enjoyment in this life I guess, not learning about other times.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn

They do not even read the old testament to learn about Moses as a warlord and leader of the genocide against the midianites. That kind of thing is labeled as “shameful” by most people, so they complain about Hillary clinton’s team killing another Kennedy or silencing a few anti-vaccine MDs with a bullet to the head.

These folks are not especially sincere or benign. Neither were most of the folks who came before them. I like to tease libertarians who rant about Thomas Jefferson and gun rights. I say that TJ supported the right of everyone to carry weapons, except for his slaves. He supported the right of his slaves to be whipped… And am I supposed to condemn him for that? What is so odd about that?

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Even when I learn about other times, that is out of self interest. Even when i say “I am unselfish,” that is out of competitiveness and self interest.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest I never said they were benign.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Well, he probably considered them to be monkeys he could breed with.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Haha, yeah, it usually is with many people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The first wife of Moses was a midianite, which was the neighboring Semitic tribe. I do not recall how many wives he had.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest I don’t think he had many. I think he was friends with her father too. Jethro? (Yitro)

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Yes, she was the young girl that he met at the well right after leaving Egypt.

Why do Libertarians and Austrian-School Economists worship the gold standard?

August 12, 2016

The below quotation is either an imprecise translation from German, or an imprecise statement, or both. In fact, it is at best only partly true as well as fundamentally wrong.


The fundamental source of demand for government-approved currencies are the debts invented by a government. A government invents various debts and then dictates what form of payment will be accepted to pay the debts (tax debts and fines and fees and so on).

The more debts (costs) that a government imposes on their source of wealth, the more demand there will be for the government approved Currency. For example, if a government raised sales tax rate from 5% to 15%, that would produce no change in the amount of currency in circulation and a massive increase in demand for that fixed amount of currency.

Likewise, if a government had a payroll tax that swallowed 15% of all wages and salaries paid within their jurisdiction, then reduced that payroll tax rate to only 5%, that would immediately produce an increase in the take-home pay of all employees (and reduce the costs of the business as well, since businesses draw from their cash reserves to pay payroll taxes).

there would be no change in the actual total amount of currency in circulation, yet a significant increase in the cash reserves of every business and every employee within the jurisdiction of that government. In other words, the coerced demand for currency would decline. When demand for something Falls, the purchasing Power of that thing falls. When purchasing power for a currency falls, prices rise. (Prices are just exchange rates.)

So, if we review the history of the United States, we can find periods in which there was a gold standard for currency, a bimetallic standard of both gold and silver, and a silver standard. Whenever a government implements a metallic standard or backing for a currency, that by default create an increase in the natural demand for that substance.

For instance, in the 1950s, the US treasury was minting pennies with a certain percentage of copper in the coin. Later, the government reduced the amount of copper in that coin.

that policy change had virtually no effect on the purchasing power of the penny, which was not DERIVED from the amount of copper in the coin. The purchasing power of the penny was derived from the debts invented by the government and imposed on the public (which could be discharged in government currency, such as nickels and dimes and pennies).

However, total market demand for copper did decline (slightly) when the US government reduced the percentage of copper used in a penny. The government stopped buying so much copper to mint in to pennies (plus they eventually reduced the total volume of pennies in circulation relative to dimes and quarters).

Whether a coin contains copper or gold or silver, the face value SET by the government determines purchasing power, not the metal in the coin. If a paper currency contains paper fibers, it is the magic shapes of ink on the paper that alter purchasing power.

What is the basis of those magic shapes of ink on THAT paper having social influence? I cannot just add a few zeroes to a $1 bill and make it a $100 bill, right?

The military capacity of the government is the foundation. The reason that people pay taxes is because of the threat of government soldiers (deputies, cops, etc) coming to arrest or evict or garnish based on non-payment of debts invented by governments.

Why does a confederate dollar bill no longer accepted at the grocery store (or even a farmer’s market)? because there is no military regime forcing people to pay taxes in that currency.




On governments as systems to alter economic demand (addendum)

August 7, 2016

BP wrote: I am not sure I see your point. Government policies affect the behavior of its citizens, but it also creates black markets. Wealth is only increased by production. And every rule and regulation have unintended consequences. Again, government cannot run an economy as efficiently as a free market (making decisions everyday based on wants and needs, supply and demand).


JR replies:

Governments influence demand, just like every enterprise influences demand. Governments happen to use coercion and propaganda to influence demand, from mandatory purchases to subsidized or favored markets to penalized markets or criminalized markets.

That is the entire point of government, right? The powerful will form governments to influence the economic activity of the humans nearby….

As for wealth being increased by production, sure. However, when the Israelites invaded the Midianites and massacred almost all of them (except for the 24,000 virgin girls they captured), what did the Israelites do with the wealth of the Midianites? Did they destroy it (like setting their fields and homes on fire)? Or, did they POSSESS that wealth?

Governments do not increase wealth, they redistribute it… and sometimes destroy it. The Israelites might have just killed one million head of livestock that the Midianite herders had accumulated. However, they seemed to favor the outcome of killing the Midianites instead and then capturing all of those livestock (plus the 24,000 virgin girls that they enslaved, plus a few thousands shekels of gold that they gathered from the Midianite nation).

Governments redistribute inventory. They destroy inventory (like when the officials of the state of Pennsylvania dumped out thousands of gallons of perfectly good milk because it was a crime to sell unpasteurized milk). Why didn’t the officials just pasteurize the milk and THEN sell it? They are not producers or sellers. They are a military operation of governing the human resources!

Governments also raise demand for various things and suppress demand for other things (like by criminalizing them or threatening to destroy all supply of that thing). When governments set prices on things (like unnaturally low prices for a grain), they are not seeking “an efficient method for resolving economic competitors.” They are imposing prices! They are putting small farmers out of business to favor the interests of the giant corporations of industrial agriculture.


In 2008, when there were major gasoline shortages in the northeast due to storms, the governments that imposed penalties on “profiteering” interfered with market forces. They removed the incentive for the private market to bring fuel to the areas. They greatly increased the severity of the crisis in those areas. Of course!

Of course they also put people on TV to make statements about how they were helping to resolve the crisis smoothly. That is just the normal lying of PR spokespeople. They are actors reading a script written by a fiction author.



As for efficiency, I do not know if a pirate ship is “more efficient” than a government naval battleship. The reality is that inequality and alliances exist.

Small kids are not as powerful as big kids. However, it is the relative lack of power that can lead to alliances and even governing institutions.

As for black markets, when I look at wolves or bees, I see only black markets. What is remarkable and strange about governments is that they create “white markets.”

As for unintended consequences, I do not mind if that is true or not. Lobbyists plan government interventions and then create propaganda campaigns to justify and promote those interventions. The alleged “intended consequences” may be entirely bullshit from the beginning.

Like Thomas Jefferson writing some inspiring words about liberty and universal human rights, then going home and f***ing his slave mistresses at gunpoint. Beware of what government-regulated professionals tell you about the governments that regulate them.

BP replied: But we do not need government. You appear to be contorting to justify government actions. You have not said one thing that changes my mind on the evil of government.


JR responded: Whether you label government evil or justified is irrelevant to me. Governments are just a group of people advancing their economic interests predictably.


I don’t care if you say that when hyenas bully a lion and steal a fresh carcass from him, that is evil and unjustified and “not needed.” The whole framework of “moral shaming” is just an exercise in the propaganda ideals that governing institutions have programmed in the masses. It is reactive denial.

Is the conspiracy to deceive children about Santa Claus effective? That is my first question. Whether you have been programmed to vilify it or glorify it could be trivia to me.


The Santa deception is once again purely economic. It advances the interests of those who indoctrinate the targeted population.


It governs the attention and behavior of the targeted population effectively. It is VERY efficient (relative to things s like only issuing bribes of compensation or threats of spanking- the Santa deception creates a huge reward pay-off plus a threat of humiliation… if Santa only fills the stocking with chunks of coal). That is why in the “open market” of parents disciplining children, the parents consistently resort to the fraud of Santa Claus (or of Saint Peter / Osiris waiting to weigh your soul at the gates of heaven).


Or, if it is not a fraud, that is still irrelevant from the perspective of predicting what the parents will do. Once they start talking to the children about how Osiris is a psychic voyeur who can keep score of how pure the thoughts of the children are, then that is a distinct economic activity from the parents thinking of Osiris privately or ending their prayers by invoking the name of the god Amun.


Once they start speaking to the children and deliberately influencing the attention of the children, then they are engaged in governing.

When they say that there is a shameful kind of behavior called lying, they are attempting to influence and dominate the children.

Anyone fluent in the Hebrew language can see the actual regulation was a prohibition against perjury under oath. The Levite caste rules over The other 11 genetic lines of the Israelites and conducts court rituals in which witnesses are called to the temple and commanded to bear witness in regard to particular matters of controversy.


There are specific penalties for “bearing false witness.” At first, these regulations were only applied by the Levites to their nation of the 12 tribes of Israelites. However, as of the time of Noah and the great flood, there was a seventh commandment added to the prior six given to Adam. The seventh commandment was to impose courts of justice (social domination) over all of humanity, whether those people were genetic Israelites or not. It was the declaration of a global government that claimed universal authority.

Also, when they say that murder is prohibited, that is not the same as prohibiting killing. Perjury and murder are invented legal categories which the Levites used to regulate and punish select individuals who had been accused of a criminalized behavior.


Of course, killing itself was not prohibited. It was merely regulated and ritualized.


When the Levites conducted a public ritual of human sacrifice, of course they killed the criminal convict. When the Israelites invaded and massacred the Midianites, that was an instance of government-endorsed killing.



Also, when children are brainwashed with moral anxieties about lying and killing, that is still an economic activity. The rulers are ruling the ruled.


When the high priest grants a pardon to Lt. Col. Oliver North for committing perjury, that is still legally valid within the rules of the system of social domination. The rulers issue a military threat to the masses that the rulers are claiming the right to penalize perjury. However, whether or not the ruling class exercises that right in a particular case is a matter of their own discretion and priorities.


So, I am not contorting to justify the behavior of governing nor contorting to vilify the behavior of governing. I am telling you that it seems quite predictable to me that hyenas will “extort tax debts” from a solitary lion who is unable to adequately fend off the hyenas. Further, all of the activities of humans governing humans are economic and predictable. In general, many governments even publish very clear declarations of the methods that they intend to use to extort wealth from and otherwise govern their targeted populations.




When the church of Scientology was able to get the IRS to back down, their “non-violent” warfare was also economic and predictable.


I presume that when the FBI’s most wanted fugitive, Marc Rich, wanted to get a pardon for his tax crimes, he strategically took action. Did his ex-wife Denise have sex with Bill Clinton and then document those activities for use as blackmail? Did Mr. Rich make massive donations to the Clinton foundation before the pardon or after the pardon or both?


Those are generally matters of trivia. Marc Rich was legally pardoned. That is the important detail practically.


The “Church” of Scientology got the IRS to back down. How they did it might be intriguing or not.


When the US department of Justice went after the diamond cartel DeBeers, either the leaders of DeBeers complied with the threats or politely told the DOJ agents that “it is in the best interests of you, your career, and your family that you lose the paperwork on this case and focus on other cases.”

Either that response was effective or not. (It was.)



So, do I justify governments? I respect the social influence of the US government… as well as organizations that routinely get the US government to back down, such as DeBeers. I also respect hurricanes and volcanoes.

I could justify my own actions and inactions. Or I might not.

But if I am not threatened by someone harassing me and trying to bully or intimidate me with threats of imprisonment or fines or torture or execution, then why would I take the time to justify anything at all? To an employer or a client, I discuss which actions are most justified, inviting their input.

When relevant, then I may consider justifications. Otherwise, I do not agonize over justification like I did when operating according to the programming of my youth.

Yet I still respect that programming. Sometimes it still may be very relevant and useful. I am not ashamed that I have been programmed to vilify certain things and glorify others.

I am not ashamed that I have been deceived through programming to prejudice me with confirmation bias. I have been programmed with biases so that I hysterically defend “familiar doctrines” and hysterically reject “potential threats to my crumbling justifications for my worship of familiar doctrines.”


On governments as systems to alter economic demand (pt 2 of 2)

August 6, 2016
The prior commentary was actually an introduction to this dialogue.

BP wrote: “I think a real estate, banking and monetary collapse is around the corner.”

JR replied: Starting in 2003, I published analysis of the global and national transitions that I have observed and forecast. Economics (supply and demand) always rules finance (price trends, lending trends, borrowing trends).

BP responded: Except when government interferes. Printing money and keeping interest rates artificially low create huge bubbles.

By 2004, global fuel markets were my main economics focus. Those global fuel markets explained the trends in war and politics.

I also consider fuel markets to be a big target for propaganda and “perception management.” An actual crisis in supplies of fuel is not essential. A perceived crisis is just as useful to people managing empires.

And, to BP, note that my model does not begin by saying “governments fundamentally distort economics.” That is propaganda.

Governments are instruments of economics. They demonstrate it.

Invasions are economic actions, as are taxes and everything else that governments do. Governments exist for the sole purpose of promoting economic benefits for the planners of that government.

The British monarchy in the 1830s had thousands of naval soldiers fighting to force China to let the British Royals sell opium to the Chinese. It was not just the British navy, but also France and the US.

But even there, it was not just about promoting the drug cartel of the British monarchy. Pushing opium addictions was itself a strategy within a bigger plan of colonialism.

BP wrote: Yet they create bubbles and prolong recessions

JR replied: There will always be periods of accumulating debts and periods of fleeing from debt. That pattern is more basic than government.

Printing money is simply a different issue. The debts could be accounted in bushels of wheat or barrels of oil.

So money is just part of “finance” … Which is RULED by economics.

Like economics is when the US invaded the North of Mexico and replaced the monetary system and tax system that had been present in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. Demand for pesos plunged and demand for dollars soared. Or recall the 1860s when the union army rendered the confederate dollar worthless.

BP wrote: But the free market is a better predictor of when to take on debt and when to save. The market better determines the price of money. Governments create moral hazard.


To me, governments are predictable developments within natural open markets. Of course governments tend to promote delusional borrowing. That is key to their purpose.

Then, when a natural deflating of credit market happens, the purchasing power of currency SOARS.

The delusional discounting of the value of money that the government has helped promote can end VERY suddenly.

Why the discounting? Because currently people relate to credit as EQUAL to cash. They think “I have a 700 credit score so I can get $400k for a mortgage if I want.”

But that $400k is not $400k of cash reserve. Their delusion is massive and it crashes with intensity.

Which creates a “cash crunch” (a release of the delusional discounting of cash as “everyone” panics and chases cash, selling inflated assets for cash, avoiding new borrowing, etc).

BP wrote: Since many politicians are puppets of bankers, the system is rigged to make both the politicians and bankers wealthier.


JR answered: All governments are instruments of the powerful. The powerful form governments as economic tools.

Why did Moses and the Israelites invade and slaughter the Midianites? It was not just to kill every male of any age and almost all of the females.

It was to take thousands of shekels of gold which the Midianites had accumulated, plus about one million head of livestock. The Israelities certainly could have killed the livestock and the 24,000 Midianites that they spared and enslaved.

However, if the whole point of the military enterprise was to “liberate” all of that wealth from the Midianities, then it would make no sense to simply abandon the livestock or set it free. So, the Israelites captured all of that livestock, plus all of that gold, plus the 24,000 virgin girls that they then distributed throughout the military and to the ruling caste of Levite priests.

Why form a military of 12,000 Israelite soldiers? Because they can pursue large-scale operations of piracy, pillaging, and enslavement.

Same as the Israelites did at the command of Moses… And same as the Brits, French, and Americans did when expanding the British drug cartel in to China.

Why did JP Morgan fund Trotsky and the Soviet “nationalization of private wealth?” It was the most profitable pillaging enterprise in Morgan’s career.

The creation of the USSR was a massive success from the perspective of the federal reserve and the US military-industrial complex. After a few decades of supporting our communist ally, we then changed policy.

When the Soviets had invaded Poland and then Germany responded by coming to the aid of Austria to meet the advancing soviet tanks, the German action was “spun” as an act of aggression. That justified the second US invasion of Europe.

The US and USSR split Berlin and Germany between them. Soon, the US and USSR were talked about as competitors (suddenly no longer allies)!

The USSR would invade somewhere that the US wanted to invade, so then the US would respond to “defend the innocent from the Soviet invaders.” Soon, the Soviets and Americans had colonized and split Korea, sections of Africa, Afghanistan, and so on.

If the Soviets set up a military base in one of their colonies, maybe they said “we are just going to keep these troops here briefly and then we will withdraw them as soon as the Iraqis can manage the situation on their own.” Or was that Japan? Or was that Chile? Or was that Panama? Or was that Nigeria or Libya or Syria or Ethiopia?

The partnership between the US and the USSR as “enemies” was a huge success. For whom? For oil companies. For international bankers. (Who own the oil cartel.)

For the Rockefellers and their collaborators, including Woodrow Wilson and FDR and Nixon and Bill Clinton and so on.

The amount of oil consumed by the US-USSR “colonial arms race” was massive.

And the amount of debt entered by governments across the planet was also massive. Power was further concentrated in the IMF and the Bank for International Settlements. The top leaders among the Zionists and the Catholic Militia orders and the free masons were all very enriched by the enterprise.

What Catholic militias and mafias do I mean? I could mean the Soveriegn Military Order of the Knights of Malta.

Note that what in the US is called the Post Master could be called in some other places the Post Magistrate or the Post Major or the Post Magi or the Postal Majesty or even just the Prime Minister of the Postal Ministry.

What organization is so powerful that it is part of the UN and has passports, but yet has no physical territory?

Mussolini: was he the one in charge or was he just a puppet? He is shown here wearing the medal of the Knights of Malta, indicating his submission to their collective operations, right?

That is not G.H.W. Bush in the left middle pic, but his son, G.W. Bush. However, the basic idea is still sound.

On governments as systems to alter economic demand (pt 1 of 2)

August 6, 2016

Briefly, what I mean by altering demand would include both policies that increase demand for something as well as policies that decrease demand. I will give examples.

I like to mention the 1933 criminalization of the possession of gold by US citizens. Most people today are not aware of this policy, which was not fully relaxed until 1975. It is an extreme case, which makes it very useful as a simple example.

Notice at the very bottom of the above document the penalties: 10 years imprisonment or a fine or both. In current 2016 dollars, the amount of the 1933 fine is equivalent to approximately $180,000.

What happened for demand for gold by the public when the US government criminalized the possession of gold? The demand for gold plunged.

Governments regularly reduce demand for certain markets by criminalizing involvement in that market, such as marijuana or the brief prohibition of alcohol or even possession of a gun. In countries where it is illegal for civilians to own guns, not only will the government take any guns found, but imprison and/or fine people for breaking the laws prohibiting the possession of guns.

So, governments may attempt to reduce or even eliminate public demand for a particular product or service. How can a government merely reduce demand for effective, scientifically-sound health promotion practices? Why not subsidize (or even mandate) other practices? In extreme cases, a government could even fine or imprison people who do not buy a mandatory health insurance plan or get a mandatory vaccination.

Governments can generate demand where none would otherwise exist, increase demand where some exists, plus reduce or eliminate competing demand. Governments can also launch publicity campaigns to drive up demand for their programs (like for mandatory vaccine programs or for launching an invasion of a far away continent).

Different industries and products can be taxed at different levels. Some markets can be favored with tax breaks (like tax deductions for health care spending) or even with tax credits (like for installing solar energy panels) that might result in a tax “refund” – perhaps even for someone who did not pay any taxes.


On the subject of taxes, those penalize economic productivity. Some tax plans penalize productivity a lot, some a little, and some none at all. Further, some tax codes are simple and some are a bit complex and some seem to be designed to be intricate and confusing.

Overall, the amount of economic productivity that governments confiscate through taxes and fines can be measured. Obviously, there is also a “disincentive” to discourage people from even being productive (and that can be compounded by subsidizing their economic dependency).

Of all the wealth taken by governments from the public, some of it will be spent for the operations of that government system of wealth extraction. Some of the wealth will be delivered to external parties, like Canada as a colony will send wealth to the British royalty or like after an invader bombs and occupies a nation, then they may impose “reparations” to create a flow of wealth from the nation that has been defeated and occupied to the victor.

Also, some of the extracted wealth will be spent locally by the government. Governments may pay certain companies billions of dollars to build special equipment for warfare. Without governments, how much demand would the average person have for a tank or a nuclear bomber or an assault rifle?

Governments order massive amounts of military equipment. Governments extract enormous amounts of wealth from the public and then pour a fraction of those confiscated resources in to the manufacturing of military weapons of mass destruction.

Who favors such policies? Those who run businesses that rely on government purchases pour resources in to lobbying for policies which keep the government sending huge amounts of wealth to their business, right?

Further, if someone can sell the US military a toilet seat for $300 and a hammer for $500, then why not sell them a submarine that costs $900,000 to build for the modest price of 12,000,000? In fact, why not sell them a thousand units of those submarines per year for the next 5 years? Maybe cut them a deal and only charge $11,000,000 per submarine based on a “volume discount.”

While many people may presume that there is some criticism or condemnation by this author of those patterns of behavior, I have made no criticism (nor glorification). I merely present the point that, fundamentally, governments alter economic demand.

If a government creates tax favoritism for people who borrow money on real estate, that increases the demand for real estate. If there is a new program that gives tax favoritism to dumping money in to special types of investment accounts, then that increases the demand for the kinds of purchases that are allowed in those accounts (such as stocks of ownership of a huge business ), which by default reduces demand for other possible investments (such as starting a small business).

I started by mentioning gold. What if a government invades a place and then invents a debt owed by the invaded population to the invading government? Those debts could be called reparations or tithes or taxes or fines or anything else. How does the ruling government select what forms of wealth can be used to repay the debts that they just invented?

If the government itself has hoarded a lot of silver, then they may want to increase public demand for silver. So, they accept payments of silver for the debts that they invent, which increases overall demand for silver.

Or, maybe they have hoarded a lot of diamonds, so then they may want to increase public demand for diamonds. If they only allow one form of wealth to be used to repay their invented debts, then that can massively increase demand for that form of wealth (if the size of the debts that they invent is enormous… and they have the military capacity to successfully extract all that wealth).



The hilarious demon worship of medical “scientists”

August 4, 2016


Perhaps the most problematic from of commitment is to ideologies that are given the sacred label of “scientific.” Once a “scientist” treats their familiar presumptions and models as “the one and only possible reality,” then they cease to be involved in scientific inquiry (assuming that they previously were inquiring scientifically).

At some point, “scientists” may just be worshiping doctrines about science. Some of the most hilarious ones to me are the ideas of “medical science” in regard to the diagnostic labels for effects being referenced as causal. For example, there is an effect called cancer which some “medical scientists” claim to be caused by “cancer.” It is like saying that sunburn causes sunburn. It is absolutely nonsense.

However, to make a diagnostic label in to a demon that possesses organisms and then eats them away from the inside like a parasitic infestation… well, that can be very good for business. It sells a lot of drugs and so on to “fight the demon of cancer which possesses you.” While I am not really opposed to demon worship in general, (having never even thought about it much) I do find it remarkable to witness the hysterical demon worship of various members of the local priesthood of “medical science.”

One century, they fight the demon of scurvy which they assert “possesses people and might even be contagious.” Later, they relax from their hysterical panic and respect the scientific insights of the natives.

The science of shaming skeptics

July 25, 2016

Is it possible for the mass media and education systems to accidentally bias our receptivity to various ideas (and our value systems about what is important or what is trivia)? I say that it is possible for there to be accidental cases of biasing, but that the vast majority of the biasing could be the core purpose of their programming operations.

Do movie producers and movie directors “accidentally” conceive fictional stories and then publicize them to attempt to make $100 million from a movie? If so, then why not at least accept the possibility that there is for-profit deception in the systems of mainstream programming (media programming and school programming)?

I will resort to math to lay out 5 possible amounts of intentional deception in the media and school system: 0%, 1-33%, 34-66%, 67-99%, or 100%. Of those 5 choices, how much of the programming content do you personally think is INTENTIONALLY constructed to deceive the masses?

The more I learn about NASA, the more I understand its true purpose. This…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I personally think that the rather obvious answer is 1-33%. To do deception well, it must be inserted within a fair amount of clearly accurate info. That sets up the presumption of accuracy and credibility.

Is the temperature that is reported on the news really accurate? Of course! The vast majority of info is totally accurate (whether or not relevant).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn As for which info gets selected for publicizing, again, there must be some amount of “pandering.” There must be a few “feel good” stories about some local kid that the media can glorify, plus the actual weather forecast (to keep people tuned in), and then the content that is really important to the sponsors can be introduced once the audience is established “because I knew that they would be giving a weather forecast every 10 minutes or so, so I just tuned in long enough to listen to the weather, and then I heard that Rush Limbaugh said something really shocking to Alex Jones about Howard Stern, so I got really pissed off and kept listening for the next 40 minutes.”

Travis Eggen
Travis Eggen weather you take a drop of poison directly, or drop it into perfectly clean water. All you have to do is take a sip of the clean water that was just mixed with the poison …. your body will not discern the % of poison … it will simply react as though it has been poisoned, and if you are force fed the rest of the glass of water there will be no good that comes from that water …. just the effects of the poison.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Now I already know that Debb is going to insist to Bob that she has personal first-hand evidence to prove that the 1 guy in the intro photo that has a question mark next to his 1986 publicity photo is me. I’m not even going to argue about that. Debb once voted for a Democrat, so we can dismiss everything she says.

Like · Reply · 1 · 44 mins
Debb Godshall
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Furthermore, Debb does not like sushi, so therefore Bob and I can dismiss everything that I say that she says.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn My first point is that most of the programming is filled with drivel (trivia). Yes, a lot of it happens to be true. But even those truths are presented because that info is relevant in producing a specific bias that the sponsors of the programming wish to produce.

Like · Reply · 1 · 43 mins · Edited
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The issue is creating bias. Lots of truth is selected to set up the bias. Then, some outrageous lies can be included to trigger the activating of the programmed biases.

Travis Eggen
Travis Eggen yes, so that we can discuss how that programing bias affects the rest of what can, and does happen in that environment. And I just jumped to …. no matter how little or how much is intentional. It all ends up poisoned because of the littlest amount.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I personally have no plans to further explore these specific claims, although I respect that some people may value exploring the depths of one case of possible deception (or several: 9/11, the Lusitania, the Titanic, etc etc etc). Here is a video (that I did not watch) with more info on this specific instance for those who might be interested:


J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Travis jumped to the metaphor of poisoning water. His point about intentionality being irrelevant is of course logically solid.

But what if there were intentional programs not just to “poison our minds,” but to poison our actual water supplies and food supplies? Is that a paranoid question to ask? Given the fact that there are cases in which one militant group has actually poisoned the water supplies of an enemy, is it ALWAYS paranoid to test the quality of drinking water?

Like · Reply · 1 · 31 mins · Edited
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn My dad conducted tests on drinking water for about 40 years in his career with the US government. That was his job. Was that paranoid?

Like · Reply · 1 · 36 mins
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The reality is that most people are “poisoned” intellectually and emotionally and so they are hysterical about skepticism. They consider most skepticism “shamefully paranoid.”

Like · Reply · 1 · 36 mins
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn However, it is not paranoid to test drinking water or to buy special gallons of purified/filtered water from a store (or to install a filter for your pipes at home). It is not even paranoid to say that “maybe some chemicals have been added to this water for the specific intention of impairing health.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Skepticism is not paranoia. Skepticism is not hysteria.

Anti-paranoia hysteria is actual paranoia, though. Anti-hysteria paranoia is also hysterical.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Am I “against” hysteria or paranoia? Or do I think that it is absolutely essential to the efficient operation of a holy empire?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn In the name of all that is holy (such as “preserving law and order”), we MUST promote a hysterical bias against skepticism in the masses. Those who are skeptical of the programmed biases of the media or the schools must be vilified because when they were children they used to believe that Sanders Claus was going to crawl down through their chimney and bring them a kinder, gentler form of DEMOCRATIC statism.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Questioning the holy doctrines of the mainstream is heresy, apostasy, and just plain unscientific. When people are displaying skepticism about popular theories about science, that skepticism is the complete rejection of science. We need to promote in the children of our world a better form of scientific inquiry (one which has no inquisitiveness and no scientific experimentation).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Science is the idea that if something is familiar to you (like because massive amounts of money have been spent to bias you in favor of that idea), then it must be true and there is no sane reason to examine it or question it. Skepticism is anti-science and must be thoroughly eliminated, which is why our saviors at the US military have developed a new vaccine to protect you from skepticism. Fortunately for you, we have already distributed it by spraying it out in chemtrails.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Anyone who was a Nazi can be dismissed because they are just trying to deceive you. Aldous Huxley not only funded Debb to vote for Sanders Claus in the primary, but according to the PBS show “Deceptive Poltiical Theatre,” Huxley was sympathetic to the Nazi party, which is wrong and evil and shameful and hysterical and downright skeptical.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Those who accuse the US government of intentionally bringing high-ranking Nazis in to the US and then placing them in top positions at NASA are clearly suffering from skepticism theories. I understand that people like Debb may occasionally try to use smear tactics to influence whether people hate Trump or Clinton the most, but she is just trying to distract you from the actual history of some very shocking and fascinating subjects that will be on this Friday’s midterm exam, so you better study them hard because it is very important to you that you compete against each other to attempt to be validated by the instructor as the most deserving of social validation.

more on claims of universal morality etc

July 23, 2016
Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Rights is not a culture it is universal. Injustice happened thru out history, but do not mean that they are not wrong.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The English word right has the same origin as the words regulation, reign, royal, rule, rex (latin), and raj (hindi / sanskrit). Ultimately, it has the same root as the words “might” and “magistrate” and “magi.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun For sometime i was very into that esoteric etymology stuff. Until I got my mental stimulant from hard core Liberty. Which I fiercely pursue. It was actually what I started out to pursue in the before anything else.

Pablo Aldunate
Pablo AldunateNot every culture even have the concept of “rights”… Anyway…I feel I have nothing to say in this conversation. Enjoy your discussion guys! 😉
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not consider my comments esoteric. Rights are created by asserting them. They are social claims.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn When the British in the 1830s or so invaded China and said “we have the right to sell opium to the Chinese,” they were “staking a claim.” That is what imperialist regimes do.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun I watched, Bill Thornton. I know exactly what you are talking about when you say assert rights.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Why did the British “rights” eventually supersede the Chinese government’s claim to set the rules of what is legal to import and what is contraband and the crime of smuggling? Because they had the assistance of their navy and the French navy and the US navy to “silence” (intimidate or kill) the rulers of China who were protesting “free trade.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun No, it is not a social claim. You do not lose it when other people disagrees that you do not have it.

More crudely, will you lose your rights, if a majority of people aggress upon you? The answer is no. The robber, no matter how much people they have, comes back to rob you a thousand times. You are still in the right, Justice still on ur side.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Stuff goes very wrong in imperialism and feudalism in the past. The common attribute of such violence over the course of history is that it had been carried out thru a state and its apparatus.

The state can be said to be intrinsically evil.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn You can say (claim) absolutely anything that you choose. Some statements will be socially validated, some ridiculed, and some punished, like penalized as criminal.

Like · Reply · 1 hr

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn You can define things as wrong or as problems. Or, social programming can brainwash and train the masses to define specific things as shameful.

When someone relates to a particular kind of thing as shameful, that is like a chronic tension or preoccupation for them. If they have suppressed aggression and then witness something hat they have been programmed to relate to as shameful, they will explode in contempt: “THAT politician is EVIIIIILLLL!”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes I know how mindlessness sheeps reacts to media stimulant and propaganda programming. Hello! I Live in political apathetic Singapore.

Also, I have a discipline of knowledge, which I earned thru research and reading, and discussion. It is called negative rights. Do not reduced it to mere claims.

I do understand, this rights are infringed and defeated against the treat of brute force of the state.
I am an absolutist, but how to strategically and prudently get us to freedom is a totally another discussion.
One way, i think is by talking to people about what it is.

There are no virtues and good outcomes by adopting defeatist attitudes in in the face of what is dire.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language involves patterns of behavior that I call “claims.” You can complicate that simple reality with ideas about “absolutism” and so on.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn However much power or freedom or capacity that I currently have, I may be attracted to protecting it and increasing it. The idea that “we” should get together to oppose “them” is very popular and is certainly a common way of exercising power.

I might recommend skepticism in regard to organizing one’s interactions around a narrative of “let’s all join together as victims against our common oppressor.” Maybe that is favorable at times. Maybe something else would be more favorable….

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Claims are positive. Rights are negative

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Perhaps. My “claim” is that “positive” and “negative” are just claims in language. In fact, everything involving language is a claim, a proposal, a “position” (which is related to the word “positive” as in a pose, as in an instance of pro-posing).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn This is still just a proposition in language: “You cannot LEGALLY ____ because I have a RIGHT to ____.”

Like · Reply · 43 mins

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes. I am overly skeptic to power.

I opposed rule by majority. I Stand for nobody should rule. It is call Anarchism.

Please i am no Social justice warrior to pander for support, to overthrow power to gain my own power.

U are pre-judging me by a far margin. Please clarify with me, what do i think of something. I do not think i used words loosely. But, u seem to have another set of linguistics interpretation.

J R Fibonacci Hunn Power deserves respect. If I use my own power without respect for the consequences that I influence, then I may have the luxury of learning a hard lesson in regard to respecting power. Or, in some cases, I may not get “another second chance.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok so you have vast knowledge in language. I yield.
How about-
You cannot tax me because I did not voluntarily want your services.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I give close attention and respect to language. To me, that is “nothing special,” even if quite rare among adults.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun “You cannot tax me because I do not voluntary want and exchange for your services, hence you are not entitled to any part of my property, that I have earned”

From a ur expertise is this positive or negative. I humbly consults u.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Any denial an be labeled as a negation or a statement “in the negative.” That is just basic grammar: “You cannot ______.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun It is negative, but it is a proposition?
Meaning it has nothing without the force, it is nothing without the aggressors’ agreement ??

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn If language is being used, that is an instance of social assertion.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Shapes of ink on paper, like a real estate contact, are just shapes of ink on paper. It is the military capacity of the court system which is used in the enforcing of contractual claims. Without that military force, contractual documents are just records of a “conversation.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun So you believe in force. Does force means justice.

Please do not digress to “what is justice”. I Am dealing in concepts not the many wondrous interpretation of any words.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Force exists. Winds blow. Predators hunt. Bombs explode.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Justice: “the administration of law.”http://www.dictionary.com/browse/justice

Justice definition, the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral…

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn law: A body of rules of conduct… prescribed, recognized, and enforced by controlling authority.


Definition of law in the Legal Dictionary by The Free Dictionary

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun You got no notion of Justice. You only pander to force.

Only to derive all concepts of ethics and morality thru status quo.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I am simply providing you with the standard definitions, with sources shown. If you find it upsetting to read what I copied and pasted here, you can focus on other, more appealing / rewarding explorations.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Taxes are, by definition, not voluntary. The warlord sends his thugs in to the local business and says “we demand 5% sales tax” or “we demand 30% income tax.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Tax systems are basically extortion rackets that create a monopoly (or near monopoly) on extortion. In 1696, there was a new tax on windows created. The tax rates were so burdensome to many people that the response by the public included a lot of people boarding up windows or filling in the window area with bricks.


A look at when the windows in your home were the subject of a government tax and how it bacame known…

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Oh yea. I can agree, tax is not voluntary. Can you agree that which is not voluntary is evil?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn What is the origin of the English word “evil?” Further, isn’t it obvious that many people use the adjective “evil” in a wide variety of ways? There is no consensus on what is evil.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Are you of the belief that morality is a merely subjective and nominal concept?

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Okay… This is getting annoying, when you question every concept and noun.

Skepticism ended the enlightenment age by convincing us “knowledge is ignorance, and confusion is enlightenment”. We can only trust and use reasons.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Davin Chee, I accept that in different cultures and subcultures, there are variations in what would be called moral or immoral (as in socially favored or discouraged).

i.e. Many people can relate to the right to vote as a DUTY, like it is “wrong or shameful” to fail to exercise the right to vote. Others relate to voting with much less stress or distress, like simply as an option or opportunity.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I also wondered if your name was a pun based on “Da Vinci” (as in Leonardo, one of the most famous Italians in history)

Davin Chee
Davin Chee No, that’s my actual name.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Regardless of that digression, if it were true that morality was merely something arbitrary that changed from time to time, then it surely is something that one can do away with – much like some form of social etiquette. Would you say you subscribe to that belief?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I am not clear on your interest. I am not especially interested in what I think you mean.

Pablo Aldunate
Pablo Aldunate Can I please be “untagged” from this conversation?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn At the very top right of the post, look for a “down arrow.” That is how I untag myself.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn This is simple enough for me: There will always be socially influence. People will always attempt to encourage or promote things. People will always attempts to discourage or prevent things.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee When one talks about rights – one refers to MORAL rights; meaning to say that in an objective morality that pertains to all men. Rights, in this instance then, refer to the standard as in “right” v.s. “wrong”, not as a form of edict that one foists upon other people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Those who claim that there is such a thing as “objective morality.” tend to be operating in a mode of barely-contained fury, looking for some target to vilify (to label as evil). Predictably, they often find what they are looking for. Ironically, two opposing groups tend to erupt in to crusades against each other’s “wrong” version of “universal morality.”

Like · Reply · 1 min · Edited

Davin Chee
Davin Chee There IS an objective morality. A morality that pertains to all men, past, present and future. Morality is a code of values that applies to all men – the fundamental question here is “what are values and what do they sustain?” Certainly there is a value that all men seek to sustain – might you hazard a guess what it is?

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun I can identified evil, but am I gonna start a crusade and will i start violence? U have to stop putting words into our mouths

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not recall putting any words in YOUR mouth. However, could I do so?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn “I did NOT say this quote, which is entirely fictional.” – Davin Chee

Davin Chee
Davin Chee What has any of that got to with me?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Nothing. I was being silly.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn If we label all moralities as “universal,” then perhaps all of them are universally **projected. (asserted)

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Being sure, and having a set of ethics code, having conviction in it. Does it automatically means violence is my logical course or conclusion ?
Does it automatically means that I am intolerant to others peoples reasons and/believes?
Does it even mean that I have to imposed my set of morality on to others that might not share it?

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Not all moralities are universal. Some of them are outright arbitrary. The point here is this – which morality is rooted in reality and not in accordance with someone’s whim? Which morality is directly correlated with a fact of nature i.e. someone’s life, and not rooted in complete subjective notion?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The reality is that my beliefs (or perceptions) are more significant in my life than those of anyone else. If some “random” human came on to my property or broke the window of my home and crawled in, their beliefs would probably not be of great interest to me.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Well, yes. Infringement of ur property.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Davin, you raise an issue that I do find interesting. Many people talk about objectivity and subjectivity (two contrasting categories in language).

I can follow a recipe and measure a particular amount of water to pour in to a bowl. The numerical measurement could be “half a gallon” or “eight ounces.”

Those are discrete “units.” Those are “objective.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn However, physical objects are “objective” and language itself is “subjective.” So, even though “eight ounces of water” is “objective,” I immediately involve subjectivity once I start talking about those eight ounces of water.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok yes. You are in agreement that the perception of reality is subjective. But reality is truly absolute

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn People can get very confused about language because it involves categorical labels. There is nothing fundamentally objective about an “either/or” categorization like “either hot or cold” or “either objective or subjective.”

There are “binary” linguistic categories (dualities), but there are also spectrums.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Reality is absolute and the reality of language is also absolute, but many are quite delusional in their relation to language….

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn So, imagine I have a container with a label that says “1 gallon of distilled water.” The label is on a half gallon container. Then I put eight ounces of non-distilled “water” in to it.

Then, someone reads the label and says “bring me that gallon of distilled water.” They might be sincere, but they are not accurate. That is still only eight ounces. The water is still not distilled.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok. The details and fine prints of language i might need you to help me out here.

But all along I was commenting on concepts. I do not think the concepts i give out is elastic, and ambiguous.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Adding a “subjective” label to an objective reality may change people’s perceptions about the objective reality, but the reality remains exactly as it was.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn So, Henry, I am presenting the possibility that rights and justice are just symbols used in the magic rituals at the temples of the ancient goddess Justitia.

Is it important that she carries a sword? Perhaps….



Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun When we mention subjectivity we meant the subjectivity as a philosophy, which relies on whimps. We agree that different individuals derive the same reality differently. We are saying this should not be law. How warlock of the past make law and country lines thru force we disagree that.

But all we are saying, they are certain objective code all humans can agree. And it can be said to be objective. And this should be the basis of law.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Henry, if you introduce the word “should,” that is a supposition or speculation or hypothetical proposition. That is the anti-thesis of objectivity.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Told you I am moved pass those stuff.

Liberty is much more interesting, and more essential to get the word out.

Like · Reply · Just now

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun ” Should ” is a normative. It is a human concept. It is not automatically subjective.

Should do not exist in a vacuum. It exist when there is the first reasoning human. All human can share the same “should ” .

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Now, certainly using a different standard does not make your observation any less objective – it just means that you measure it differently. 10kg is exactly the same as 22lbs, both refer to the same attribute and are hence objective. The standards might differ, but the metaphysical elements nonetheless remain the same.

In that same regard, all men need a code of values to guide them in their lives to pursue a specific value. What universal value is this? Once again, I invite you to hazard a guess?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language is interpretative (creative). Subjectivity is inherit to all uses of language… but to varying degrees.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee The word “should” actually implies a normative concept (See: David Hume’s is/ought dichotomy). The question here hence is whether morality is tied to any metaphysical fact (which I have invited you to guess in my previous post)

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn 100kg might be objective, but the statement “I weigh 100kg” will not add or remove a single gram from my weight.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes. Reality is absolute.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language is creative and social. It is socially creative. If you fully understand that, then lots of “mysticism” and “metaphysics” will be very simple.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee So you see that objective reality is beyond the whims of men. That’s an accurate observation. Once again, can you see a value that all men seek to attain if they wish to live?

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Indeed, the perceptual (sound) elements of language can be creative and social, but would you say that the concepts are? Observe the word “cat” as stretched across different cultures and countries. Do they mean the same thing? How about the word “2”?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Words are inherently symbolic. Is this a cat?



J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn One is a sketch and one is a photo. Neither are a cat. Both depict cats.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee It’s an image of a cat, but it’s certainly not a cat. Words refer to concepts, not merely to percepts.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee So when one talks about the notion of “2”, one does not refer to a existent known as 2, but rather a conceptual entity. In that same regard, the CONCEPT of the cat remains universal – a cat may lack all of its four legs (accidental attributes) and still remain a cat.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Cats is just a category in language. It contains subcategories, like “big cats” and “kittens.”

It is within categories, like mammal and animal. Here is something close to a cat, but not a cat:



J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Back to “2,” it is universal as a concept, but it means nothing by itself. 2 kg are not 2 ounces. 2 is a universal abstraction in language.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn In fact, a “pole cat” is called a cat, but is not a cat at all:



J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Where is “objective reality?” It is everywhere. You are it.

Further “objective reality” is symbol in language that means “everything except for language.” Language is the realm of subjectivity. No matter how hard you look for subjectivity “out there,” it is simply does not exist without some commentary being made on what is ***fundamentally non-linguistic.***

Like · Reply · Just now

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Is that a “deep” teaching from Zen / Dhyana? Some people might label it as such. To me, it is unremarkable and “self-evident.”

%d bloggers like this: