Rose and JR discuss “toying with others” vs “universal altruism”

(Below, it is hard to see where one subthread ends and the next begins, although the overall exchange is still pretty clear.)

I don’t think anyone’s primary reason for doing anything is to hurt an other or others, corporations either. They want success fo themselves, protection for their family, or other things along those lines. Unfortunately the way they go about it, an other or others may get hurt, and possibly they know, and continue. Sometimes perhaps they don’t know or care ever. Point? Anyone can be understood, if they want to be, i hope! Lol

Jeff Cantley

Jeff Cantley You don’t have that purpose. 20% of the population does. About 10% of them are really bad people.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene SecrestYeah. I know some people are just “purely” bad. Thanks, Jeff

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn For soldiers, it is pretty normal to bomb civilians.

****************

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYes, but they do it for money and to make their own families proud and happy etc. So the purpose may be more for what they feel are positive reasons? I do think it’s pretty nuts & irresponsible to join in a fight when you don’t know 1st hand if the other side are actually bad.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Bad” is often irrelevant. After a lion rips out the throat of an antelope, the pack of hyena come to bully the lion in to abandoning the carcass to the pack.

For the same simple reason of (perceived) military superiority, the British monarchy arranged for their own navy plus the navy of France and of the United States to attack China in the early 19th century. Why? Because they could.

why else? Because the Chinese government was trying to stop the British government from selling opium to the people of China.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe British created an alliance with other powerful bullies to defeat the Chinese military.

When the Israelite army led by Moses massacred the neighboring midianites, they captured 16,000 young virgin girls as slaves. Why not just kill them too? Because they were productive (for bearing children).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAfter massacring all the other midianites (all males of any age and all females past puberty), did the Israelites abandon the 675,000 sheep of the midianites, plus the cattle and donkeys and all their gold? No, they collected all of that.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhy did they invade? Because they had a better military capacity than their target and their target had a lot of wealth that was not “adequately” defended.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestSee? No one kills to kill. They kill to eat, to have underage girls, to get donkeys and cattle, to have fun with other bullies. There’s always another reason.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAh… That so your angle. Well, I am confident that there are people who kill “just to prove that they can.” Then there was my housecat who used to “play” with lizards until the lizards died. The cat usually would not even eat them.

plus there are the elephants that run through field and kill thousands of innocent insects…..

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe US bombed civilians in Japan not to intimidate Japan, but to intimidate the rest of the world. Japan was already defeated.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestVery twisted webby world. True, some people just try to get away with things, but again perhaps on an unconscious level to raise their own hormones. Cats are natural killers to eat, when we feed them catfood, they don’t get to kill, and they miss that part of eating, so they kill anyway. Planting soy or wheat for vegetarians makes floods, famines, droughts, kills bugs, gophers, all to prove one is better than another by not killing cows. A paper was written detailing exactly how many lives. The guy got a lot of gruf for publishing that.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYep, they intimidated for control, probably not just to intimidate. People have hurt me just trying to control everyone. It does not fully work, but i guess it works to maim and kill to intimidate others often enough to gain more power. There’s usually more than one reason for everything.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWell sure hormones drive everything and then we humans often make up rationalization that support the pretenses our of social persona. Those rationalization are also driven by adrenalin and cortisol. Without those stress hormones, no one bothers to justify their own actions or to ridicule the actions of those whom they vilify to make themselves seem more “righteous.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnPeople do not actually care about dead cows or droughts or the inmates in the local Phoenix Arizona jail that are warehoused outside in tents and endure 118 degree temperatures with no air conditioning. We care about our egos and competing socially with others (which is whole point of the ego).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWe may get addicted to the validation of others for talking about how much we care about cows, but that is all just a Coping mechanism for distress. Thousands of cows could be getting slaughtered right now by knives or by an earthquake and I promise that I do not care at all about them… Or at least that is one possible persona / identity to present.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestExactly. Most find ego more important than goodness life death ..

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Goodness” is just an egoic concern. Cows and hyenas do not bother with conceptual idols like “goodness” because their social status does not depend on persona. It depends more on raw physical capacity.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestYes. And goodness could not exist if evil did not exist. “Nothing really matters anymore”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThose are just labels in language.

Roselene Secrest
Roselene SecrestTitles, labels, used to justify anything someone does to another.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThere are basically two social imperatives: “whose approval or interest would I like to attract” and then “how do I attract them?”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnMany? Who does not want to create or maintain “social status?”

even people who are “rebelling against society” are operating from a conceptual model of “what is intrinsically right.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnRight and wrong are subjective. Subjectivities are not objective (not intrinsic).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHow do you earn entry in to heaven? By wearing a very modest bathing suit? By rebelling against the oppressors and breastfeeding in public?

The ego is a conceptual model of “who I am ( as distinct from how I am not).” It is a coping mechanism for social pressure. It is based on socially imposed categories about “how people should be.” That is why hypocrisy is so popular… People literally filter their own observations to maintain a particular narrative about themselves.

Plus, if I am operating from a narrative of powerless victim, then I am going to go around and construct a narrative of how there are however many villains.

The “victim” will find a way vilify someone else. They need to preserve their identity as the victim.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI was very clear that the Tibetan lama did not identify himself as a victim.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHe actually spoke with sympathy for the soldiers who were conducting the torture. He talked about blessing them and praying for them while they were torturing him and other people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnHe said things more like this: “It was a very remarkable tragedy and there were many who suffered greatly during that period, even including many of the people involved in victimizing others.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhat about when people in the audience asked him questions like “don’t you ever wish that the Chinese had not invaded Tibet?”

“I focus my wishes on the future, not the past. I am grateful to have lived in Tibet for so long, then to have been received as a refugee in to Nepal and India, and right now to be here with you. Do you wish to be here right now with all of us in this auditorium? It is very safe socially and we have air conditioning too!”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Sir, this is Arizona.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Yes, I know. I liked California better. But it you prefer Arizona, then it is very lucky for you that you live here and not in California or Tibet!”

He added “it is very good if you experience grief and suffer in sympathy when you hear my story or the story of others who have survived tragedies. That is the beginning of your healing. Maybe it is even better if you experience gratitude and joy and laugh with us. That is the end of your healing.

Laugh with us. We are just refugees. We are not dead. I am not even 80 years old yet! This is probably my last trip to the US… And I am so glad to have spent this afternoon with all of you. I just wish you would have come to my talk yesterday in California so we did not have to drive all the way to Tucson. No, I am only joking.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn“Do you believe in reincarnation?”

“I admit that reincarnation is a very silly idea, although many ideas that seemed very silly to me at first have later seemed undeniable.”

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (end of subthread)
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn I listened to a live in person Lecture by a Tibetan lama talking about being tortured by the invading Chinese soldiers. He talked about the sexual assaults of the soldiers against the Tibetan nuns and being forced to watch.

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Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Rape is often done to dominate, to raise one’s own hormones, hate, idk, what does that have to do with this?

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Your original post was in regard to “hurting people just to hurt them.” The nuns were assaulted and the attacks were apparently so brutal that some did not survive. The monks were forced to watch because the soldiers apparently were trying to traumatized and “break” the monks, many of whom also did not survive the torture rituals.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The soldiers were ordered to perform the torture (under threat from their supervisors). However, there are cases in which torturers simply “toy with” their victims and whether the victims live or die is rather unimportant to the torturer… Like my cat just “toying” with a lizard “for fun.”

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Yes, they often don’t care if they kill, following orders or fear.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Or like the housecat, they just pounce and bite and tear… and then they may be surprised and disappointed when suddenly the corpse completely stops moving.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest It’s okay, they can find another squirmer.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Yeah, if there is still sunlight and perhaps only after licking their hair for nearly half an hour.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Then some driver hit my favorite pet dog and the driver did not even stop. What is it with people this millennium? Actually, that was last millennium… But you get the point.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Yes, people kill by accident and don’t notice nor care. Seems people are geting worse.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest My condolences on the loss of your dog. That pretty much happened to one of our dogs in 2012. 😦

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn That was around 1978. An interesting detail is that the death of the dog gave me a socially acceptable reason to grieve (an outlet for ALL of my disappointment). However, my mom was apparently pretty annoyed by my emotions, so she bought me another dog the next day.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn It can be pretty disturbing for someone who pretends not to be disappointed with their life to be around kids (or anyone else) who openly display grief.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest J R, yeah. Maybe why many parents say to an injured child that it’s alright, instead of acknowleging real injury.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Saying “it is alright” can promote calm in a child, which is often attractive to the adult. There is also the message to “be quiet” that can be conveyed through the words “that is pretty minor and you are such a big boy. Only little babies would cry about minor stuff like that. You are a big boy, right?”

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Aka guilt tripping

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Take the example of Vlad the impaler (aka Count Dracula, the local warlord in Transylvania operating under the supervision of the Vatican). Why did he torture and kill so many people and then leave them to rot on the poles in public? It was to intimidate and terrify. It is the same reason that the US bombed civilians in japan.

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Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Funny, many think Vlad was just a story. Anything is just a story when one did not experience it themself.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn He was the most famous tyrant of the entire eastern front of the holy inquisition. Most people in the US (even Catholics) do not know the names of the top generals of any of the crusades… And why should they?

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest J R, they care about their enjoyment in this life I guess, not learning about other times.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn

They do not even read the old testament to learn about Moses as a warlord and leader of the genocide against the midianites. That kind of thing is labeled as “shameful” by most people, so they complain about Hillary clinton’s team killing another Kennedy or silencing a few anti-vaccine MDs with a bullet to the head.

These folks are not especially sincere or benign. Neither were most of the folks who came before them. I like to tease libertarians who rant about Thomas Jefferson and gun rights. I say that TJ supported the right of everyone to carry weapons, except for his slaves. He supported the right of his slaves to be whipped… And am I supposed to condemn him for that? What is so odd about that?

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Even when I learn about other times, that is out of self interest. Even when i say “I am unselfish,” that is out of competitiveness and self interest.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest I never said they were benign.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Well, he probably considered them to be monkeys he could breed with.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest Haha, yeah, it usually is with many people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn The first wife of Moses was a midianite, which was the neighboring Semitic tribe. I do not recall how many wives he had.

Roselene Secrest

Roselene Secrest I don’t think he had many. I think he was friends with her father too. Jethro? (Yitro)

J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci Hunn Yes, she was the young girl that he met at the well right after leaving Egypt.

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