more on claims of universal morality etc

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Rights is not a culture it is universal. Injustice happened thru out history, but do not mean that they are not wrong.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The English word right has the same origin as the words regulation, reign, royal, rule, rex (latin), and raj (hindi / sanskrit). Ultimately, it has the same root as the words “might” and “magistrate” and “magi.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun For sometime i was very into that esoteric etymology stuff. Until I got my mental stimulant from hard core Liberty. Which I fiercely pursue. It was actually what I started out to pursue in the before anything else.

Pablo Aldunate
Pablo AldunateNot every culture even have the concept of “rights”… Anyway…I feel I have nothing to say in this conversation. Enjoy your discussion guys! 😉
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not consider my comments esoteric. Rights are created by asserting them. They are social claims.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn When the British in the 1830s or so invaded China and said “we have the right to sell opium to the Chinese,” they were “staking a claim.” That is what imperialist regimes do.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun I watched, Bill Thornton. I know exactly what you are talking about when you say assert rights.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Why did the British “rights” eventually supersede the Chinese government’s claim to set the rules of what is legal to import and what is contraband and the crime of smuggling? Because they had the assistance of their navy and the French navy and the US navy to “silence” (intimidate or kill) the rulers of China who were protesting “free trade.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun No, it is not a social claim. You do not lose it when other people disagrees that you do not have it.

More crudely, will you lose your rights, if a majority of people aggress upon you? The answer is no. The robber, no matter how much people they have, comes back to rob you a thousand times. You are still in the right, Justice still on ur side.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Stuff goes very wrong in imperialism and feudalism in the past. The common attribute of such violence over the course of history is that it had been carried out thru a state and its apparatus.

The state can be said to be intrinsically evil.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn You can say (claim) absolutely anything that you choose. Some statements will be socially validated, some ridiculed, and some punished, like penalized as criminal.

Like · Reply · 1 hr

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn You can define things as wrong or as problems. Or, social programming can brainwash and train the masses to define specific things as shameful.

When someone relates to a particular kind of thing as shameful, that is like a chronic tension or preoccupation for them. If they have suppressed aggression and then witness something hat they have been programmed to relate to as shameful, they will explode in contempt: “THAT politician is EVIIIIILLLL!”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes I know how mindlessness sheeps reacts to media stimulant and propaganda programming. Hello! I Live in political apathetic Singapore.

Also, I have a discipline of knowledge, which I earned thru research and reading, and discussion. It is called negative rights. Do not reduced it to mere claims.

I do understand, this rights are infringed and defeated against the treat of brute force of the state.
I am an absolutist, but how to strategically and prudently get us to freedom is a totally another discussion.
One way, i think is by talking to people about what it is.

There are no virtues and good outcomes by adopting defeatist attitudes in in the face of what is dire.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language involves patterns of behavior that I call “claims.” You can complicate that simple reality with ideas about “absolutism” and so on.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn However much power or freedom or capacity that I currently have, I may be attracted to protecting it and increasing it. The idea that “we” should get together to oppose “them” is very popular and is certainly a common way of exercising power.

I might recommend skepticism in regard to organizing one’s interactions around a narrative of “let’s all join together as victims against our common oppressor.” Maybe that is favorable at times. Maybe something else would be more favorable….


Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Claims are positive. Rights are negative

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Perhaps. My “claim” is that “positive” and “negative” are just claims in language. In fact, everything involving language is a claim, a proposal, a “position” (which is related to the word “positive” as in a pose, as in an instance of pro-posing).

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn This is still just a proposition in language: “You cannot LEGALLY ____ because I have a RIGHT to ____.”

Like · Reply · 43 mins

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes. I am overly skeptic to power.

I opposed rule by majority. I Stand for nobody should rule. It is call Anarchism.

Please i am no Social justice warrior to pander for support, to overthrow power to gain my own power.

U are pre-judging me by a far margin. Please clarify with me, what do i think of something. I do not think i used words loosely. But, u seem to have another set of linguistics interpretation.

J R Fibonacci Hunn Power deserves respect. If I use my own power without respect for the consequences that I influence, then I may have the luxury of learning a hard lesson in regard to respecting power. Or, in some cases, I may not get “another second chance.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok so you have vast knowledge in language. I yield.
How about-
You cannot tax me because I did not voluntarily want your services.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I give close attention and respect to language. To me, that is “nothing special,” even if quite rare among adults.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun “You cannot tax me because I do not voluntary want and exchange for your services, hence you are not entitled to any part of my property, that I have earned”

From a ur expertise is this positive or negative. I humbly consults u.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Any denial an be labeled as a negation or a statement “in the negative.” That is just basic grammar: “You cannot ______.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun It is negative, but it is a proposition?
Meaning it has nothing without the force, it is nothing without the aggressors’ agreement ??

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn If language is being used, that is an instance of social assertion.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Shapes of ink on paper, like a real estate contact, are just shapes of ink on paper. It is the military capacity of the court system which is used in the enforcing of contractual claims. Without that military force, contractual documents are just records of a “conversation.”

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun So you believe in force. Does force means justice.

Please do not digress to “what is justice”. I Am dealing in concepts not the many wondrous interpretation of any words.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Force exists. Winds blow. Predators hunt. Bombs explode.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Justice: “the administration of law.”http://www.dictionary.com/browse/justice

Justice definition, the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral…
DICTIONARY.COM

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn law: A body of rules of conduct… prescribed, recognized, and enforced by controlling authority.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/law

Definition of law in the Legal Dictionary by The Free Dictionary
LEGAL-DICTIONARY.THEFREEDICTIONARY.COM

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun You got no notion of Justice. You only pander to force.

Only to derive all concepts of ethics and morality thru status quo.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I am simply providing you with the standard definitions, with sources shown. If you find it upsetting to read what I copied and pasted here, you can focus on other, more appealing / rewarding explorations.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
 
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Taxes are, by definition, not voluntary. The warlord sends his thugs in to the local business and says “we demand 5% sales tax” or “we demand 30% income tax.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Tax systems are basically extortion rackets that create a monopoly (or near monopoly) on extortion. In 1696, there was a new tax on windows created. The tax rates were so burdensome to many people that the response by the public included a lot of people boarding up windows or filling in the window area with bricks.

http://www.historyhouse.co.uk/articles/window_tax.html

A look at when the windows in your home were the subject of a government tax and how it bacame known…
HISTORYHOUSE.CO.UK

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Oh yea. I can agree, tax is not voluntary. Can you agree that which is not voluntary is evil?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn What is the origin of the English word “evil?” Further, isn’t it obvious that many people use the adjective “evil” in a wide variety of ways? There is no consensus on what is evil.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Are you of the belief that morality is a merely subjective and nominal concept?

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Okay… This is getting annoying, when you question every concept and noun.

Skepticism ended the enlightenment age by convincing us “knowledge is ignorance, and confusion is enlightenment”. We can only trust and use reasons.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Davin Chee, I accept that in different cultures and subcultures, there are variations in what would be called moral or immoral (as in socially favored or discouraged).

i.e. Many people can relate to the right to vote as a DUTY, like it is “wrong or shameful” to fail to exercise the right to vote. Others relate to voting with much less stress or distress, like simply as an option or opportunity.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I also wondered if your name was a pun based on “Da Vinci” (as in Leonardo, one of the most famous Italians in history)

Davin Chee
Davin Chee No, that’s my actual name.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Regardless of that digression, if it were true that morality was merely something arbitrary that changed from time to time, then it surely is something that one can do away with – much like some form of social etiquette. Would you say you subscribe to that belief?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I am not clear on your interest. I am not especially interested in what I think you mean.

Pablo Aldunate
Pablo Aldunate Can I please be “untagged” from this conversation?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn At the very top right of the post, look for a “down arrow.” That is how I untag myself.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
 
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn This is simple enough for me: There will always be socially influence. People will always attempt to encourage or promote things. People will always attempts to discourage or prevent things.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee When one talks about rights – one refers to MORAL rights; meaning to say that in an objective morality that pertains to all men. Rights, in this instance then, refer to the standard as in “right” v.s. “wrong”, not as a form of edict that one foists upon other people.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Those who claim that there is such a thing as “objective morality.” tend to be operating in a mode of barely-contained fury, looking for some target to vilify (to label as evil). Predictably, they often find what they are looking for. Ironically, two opposing groups tend to erupt in to crusades against each other’s “wrong” version of “universal morality.”

Like · Reply · 1 min · Edited

Davin Chee
Davin Chee There IS an objective morality. A morality that pertains to all men, past, present and future. Morality is a code of values that applies to all men – the fundamental question here is “what are values and what do they sustain?” Certainly there is a value that all men seek to sustain – might you hazard a guess what it is?

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun I can identified evil, but am I gonna start a crusade and will i start violence? U have to stop putting words into our mouths

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn I do not recall putting any words in YOUR mouth. However, could I do so?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn “I did NOT say this quote, which is entirely fictional.” – Davin Chee

Davin Chee
Davin Chee What has any of that got to with me?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Nothing. I was being silly.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
Write a reply…
 
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn If we label all moralities as “universal,” then perhaps all of them are universally **projected. (asserted)

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Being sure, and having a set of ethics code, having conviction in it. Does it automatically means violence is my logical course or conclusion ?
Does it automatically means that I am intolerant to others peoples reasons and/believes?
Does it even mean that I have to imposed my set of morality on to others that might not share it?

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Not all moralities are universal. Some of them are outright arbitrary. The point here is this – which morality is rooted in reality and not in accordance with someone’s whim? Which morality is directly correlated with a fact of nature i.e. someone’s life, and not rooted in complete subjective notion?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn The reality is that my beliefs (or perceptions) are more significant in my life than those of anyone else. If some “random” human came on to my property or broke the window of my home and crawled in, their beliefs would probably not be of great interest to me.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Well, yes. Infringement of ur property.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Davin, you raise an issue that I do find interesting. Many people talk about objectivity and subjectivity (two contrasting categories in language).

I can follow a recipe and measure a particular amount of water to pour in to a bowl. The numerical measurement could be “half a gallon” or “eight ounces.”

Those are discrete “units.” Those are “objective.”

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn However, physical objects are “objective” and language itself is “subjective.” So, even though “eight ounces of water” is “objective,” I immediately involve subjectivity once I start talking about those eight ounces of water.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok yes. You are in agreement that the perception of reality is subjective. But reality is truly absolute

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn People can get very confused about language because it involves categorical labels. There is nothing fundamentally objective about an “either/or” categorization like “either hot or cold” or “either objective or subjective.”

There are “binary” linguistic categories (dualities), but there are also spectrums.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Reality is absolute and the reality of language is also absolute, but many are quite delusional in their relation to language….

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn So, imagine I have a container with a label that says “1 gallon of distilled water.” The label is on a half gallon container. Then I put eight ounces of non-distilled “water” in to it.

Then, someone reads the label and says “bring me that gallon of distilled water.” They might be sincere, but they are not accurate. That is still only eight ounces. The water is still not distilled.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Ok. The details and fine prints of language i might need you to help me out here.

But all along I was commenting on concepts. I do not think the concepts i give out is elastic, and ambiguous.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Adding a “subjective” label to an objective reality may change people’s perceptions about the objective reality, but the reality remains exactly as it was.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn So, Henry, I am presenting the possibility that rights and justice are just symbols used in the magic rituals at the temples of the ancient goddess Justitia.

Is it important that she carries a sword? Perhaps….

http://www.vergelijk-autoverzekeringen.be/…/rechtsbijst…

VERGELIJK-AUTOVERZEKERINGEN.BE

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun When we mention subjectivity we meant the subjectivity as a philosophy, which relies on whimps. We agree that different individuals derive the same reality differently. We are saying this should not be law. How warlock of the past make law and country lines thru force we disagree that.

But all we are saying, they are certain objective code all humans can agree. And it can be said to be objective. And this should be the basis of law.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Henry, if you introduce the word “should,” that is a supposition or speculation or hypothetical proposition. That is the anti-thesis of objectivity.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Told you I am moved pass those stuff.

Liberty is much more interesting, and more essential to get the word out.

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Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun ” Should ” is a normative. It is a human concept. It is not automatically subjective.

Should do not exist in a vacuum. It exist when there is the first reasoning human. All human can share the same “should ” .

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Now, certainly using a different standard does not make your observation any less objective – it just means that you measure it differently. 10kg is exactly the same as 22lbs, both refer to the same attribute and are hence objective. The standards might differ, but the metaphysical elements nonetheless remain the same.

In that same regard, all men need a code of values to guide them in their lives to pursue a specific value. What universal value is this? Once again, I invite you to hazard a guess?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language is interpretative (creative). Subjectivity is inherit to all uses of language… but to varying degrees.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee The word “should” actually implies a normative concept (See: David Hume’s is/ought dichotomy). The question here hence is whether morality is tied to any metaphysical fact (which I have invited you to guess in my previous post)

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn 100kg might be objective, but the statement “I weigh 100kg” will not add or remove a single gram from my weight.

Henry Chew Zi Cun
Henry Chew Zi Cun Yes. Reality is absolute.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Language is creative and social. It is socially creative. If you fully understand that, then lots of “mysticism” and “metaphysics” will be very simple.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee So you see that objective reality is beyond the whims of men. That’s an accurate observation. Once again, can you see a value that all men seek to attain if they wish to live?

Davin Chee
Davin Chee Indeed, the perceptual (sound) elements of language can be creative and social, but would you say that the concepts are? Observe the word “cat” as stretched across different cultures and countries. Do they mean the same thing? How about the word “2”?

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Words are inherently symbolic. Is this a cat?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/…/e3b6c241e80945f1…

S-MEDIA-CACHE-AK0.PINIMG.COM

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn One is a sketch and one is a photo. Neither are a cat. Both depict cats.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee It’s an image of a cat, but it’s certainly not a cat. Words refer to concepts, not merely to percepts.

Davin Chee
Davin Chee So when one talks about the notion of “2”, one does not refer to a existent known as 2, but rather a conceptual entity. In that same regard, the CONCEPT of the cat remains universal – a cat may lack all of its four legs (accidental attributes) and still remain a cat.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Cats is just a category in language. It contains subcategories, like “big cats” and “kittens.”

It is within categories, like mammal and animal. Here is something close to a cat, but not a cat:

http://media.galaxant.com/000/019/190/04-The-Fossa.jpg

MEDIA.GALAXANT.COM

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Back to “2,” it is universal as a concept, but it means nothing by itself. 2 kg are not 2 ounces. 2 is a universal abstraction in language.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn In fact, a “pole cat” is called a cat, but is not a cat at all:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/…/f/fa/Polecat_(PSF).png

UPLOAD.WIKIMEDIA.ORG

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Where is “objective reality?” It is everywhere. You are it.

Further “objective reality” is symbol in language that means “everything except for language.” Language is the realm of subjectivity. No matter how hard you look for subjectivity “out there,” it is simply does not exist without some commentary being made on what is ***fundamentally non-linguistic.***

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J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci Hunn Is that a “deep” teaching from Zen / Dhyana? Some people might label it as such. To me, it is unremarkable and “self-evident.”


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