Anarchism: an equal respect for all political systems?

Kelly Spicer

 wrote:

I read this in another group and it’s PERFECT:
Regarding government control: We don’t need them to survive and they know it. And because we don’t need them, they can’t control us. Because they can’t control us. they fear us. Because they fear us, they try to make us out to be ignorant and backwards. Because they make us out to be ignorant and backwards, they underestimate us. Because they underestimate us, that gives us more power!

Comments
Sara Ferah
Sara FerahYeah. The only way they can control us is by making us hate them so that we react to them and then they can minipulate us like puppets. If we just ignore them then they can’t throw us in prison.
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci HunnThe comments from Kelly and Sara are very remarkable to me. On December 29, 1890, the US government (the army) slaughtered about 300 civilians at a place called “wounded knee” (apparently as part of a gun control initiative).

Did the US government “need” the ongoing tax revenues and labor of the targeted population? No, after the massacre, the US government continued to operate much as it had before. The government did not immediately collapse as a result of killing a few hundred people.

Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerThe scope and agenda of the government in 1890 is totally different from the current government.
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci HunnDifferent? Of course! Totally different? I will refrain from requesting a discussion of details. I have no special interest in examining “extremist” assertions.

If I were to die in 10 minutes, that would have virtually no effect on the operations of governments in my vicinity. In contrast, if the court system and overall operation of government in my midst were to suddenly cease, my life would radically change. I respect the power of certain groups.

Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerI’m not sure why you’d be a member of an anarchist group.
J R Fibonacci Hunn

J R Fibonacci HunnTo some people, anarchism may mean contempt for any form of social institution, as in a contempt for modern humanity in general. To me, anarchism means the absence of a preference for any particular form of social institution.

I have a very casual and scientific or intellectual interpretation of anarchy. I’m not insulted by the existence of social institutions, such as the institution of marriage or the existence of court systems.

J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAnarchism could be just a rejection of all forms of political hySteria or idealism
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerAnarchism is the rejection of the concept of one being ruling another.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAdults may impose rules on their children. This can be observed in many species. Eventually, those same children may reach adulthood and rule over their own offspring.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerThe original post is not intended to be coercive; instead it’s intent is to create solidarity amongst people of the same frame of mind, such as an anarchist group.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerI don’t compare parenting to ruling. Parenting is guidance for those who cannot care for themselves because of lack of maturity, strength, knowledge, skill, etc. Ruling is a position of power based on the belief that adult beings cannot govern themselves, even as they did for eons before the existence of organised government.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI am rather attentive to language so if that doesn’t work for you then so be it. If I employ 10 people in a business, I do not set the rules because they “cannot” perform without those rules, but because the rules can improve the performance or the productivity.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhen Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, that was because it was in the interest of certain people to remove him from office. They killed him out of their own self interest, or out of competitiveness.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerThat’s because business is capitalism and capitalism is dependent on governance, and vice versa.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhen all of the accomplices in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln were pardoned by Andrew Johnson, Who was the VP who became president because of the assassination, again that was a manifestation of political power. The presidential pardon allowed for all of the suspects to Face no legal consequences for their involvement in the assassination.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnIn that case, the accomplices were protected. In other cases, the accomplices in an assassination will face legal examination and possible punishment.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerWhile I understand your reference, it serves little purpose arguing that with a person who would just as soon watch the entire political structure collapse smile emoticon.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe rules in that case involved massive inequality of power. Rules usually do. There are inequalities of capacity, just as a newborn is not a toddler and a toddler is not an adult.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI am not arguing for a particular political structure. I am just casually discussing various kinds of social dynamics, including the rituals of imperialist political institutions.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerI can appreciate your knowledge, but as an anarchist, I don’t believe in superiority of the dynamics of any governmental structure.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerI also did not intend to accuse you of arguing, as I am also casually discussing these ideas.
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J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI accept that they are differences in capacity, such as between an elephant and a kitten or between a group of soldiers flying a combat helicopter and a group of fishermen.
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J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI do not accept that there is any important fundamental difference between the local police helicopter crew and the people fishing. However, I respect the massive differences in their circumstances.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerAny being can have brief circumstantial control over situations involving other beings, it’s the constant, enforced control and threat of punishment that I do not believe in.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnIn contrast, there are massive “fundamental”differences in a food chain, such as between bunny rabbits and the Eagles that hunt them.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnYou use the phrase “believe in” like “condone” or “favor” or “glorify.” I accept certain realities with respect but without any special bias (interest).
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerEven in the example if the food chain, there are circumstantial deviations. While the eagle is stronger and a skilled hunter, a rabbit can be surprisingly vicious, and capable of fighting back. Just as millions of humans can revolt and overthrow a ruler.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI use the term “circumstantial” as distinct from “fundamental” to indicate that I believe certain things to be obvious, yet subject to change.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerI use “believe in” to describe ideas that I do subscribe to as necessary or of particular benefit.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerGovernment is a reality only because it’s accepted.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnYes, it is possible to secede from an empire or even to overthrow a ruler. The USSR dissolved in to isolated segments while (within a decade) there was a major centralizing of power in the EU.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhen two groups compete to govern, such as in the us civil war, they are both seeking to monopolize certain benefits. Whoever wins, the average person may be oppressed by the winner either way.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnSometimes the thing holding you back is a chain or a prison cell.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerOnly because one man has given another man that power.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAn elephant born in to a circus did not give power to the humans who chain it. Neither do slaves.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnSocial power and military power is developed and then seized.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerAn elephant is not a man; man is able to rule over most species only because we have the ability to develop tools if defense and control.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnSeized… Like an eagle taking a bunny.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerSlaves do have the power to revolt.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnElephants have the power to revolt and those who shoot them in response have the power to shoot them in response.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnOne issue is an idea like “all elephants should revolt!”
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnSome might. Some might not.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerSeized because the people being ruled over were not prepared to defend against it or chose to allow it to happen. That in and of itself is not governance, that’s survival of the fittest. The systems that are then put into place are governance.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI could say “hi kelly, I want to rebel against a certain circumstance and I am interested in your cooperation.” Maybe you are interested and maybe not.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnYour interest could depend on the specifics.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerIn the case of slaves, for example, they always have the capability to revolt. Slaves are many and masters are few. If a group of enslaved people decide that they are no longer willing to be so, they revolt. One of two things happens: either they are successful and overthrow their ruler, or they fail and are killed. Either way, they are no longer under the control of the master.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnOr, they successfully overthrow one master and then eventually are enslaved by another.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerIn which case, the same options exist. Free yourselves either by fighting or dying.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnMany slave revolts in the early 19th century in the US ended poorly for the slaves. However, that outcome may have been favorable to them relative to continuing to live in slavery.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnAnd there are other human conditions besides slavery that we could address. The Native Americans that were killed at wounded knee were not slaves, but they were being forced to move away from their prior habitations.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnFor imperialist aggressors, there are also options. They can attempt to enslave or govern an existing population or attempt to wipe it out.
Kelly Spicer
Kelly SpicerYou are illustrating my point smile emoticon. The massacre of the native tribes is a perfect example of governmental control, although not an example of one group being enslaved by another, as the intention was not to enslave the tribes but rather to wipe them out.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnSo I have equal respect for many different forms of government. I do not advocate for any particular one as being eternally superior to all the others. Of course, that orientation may be extremely unpopular within certain groups of people.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnI believe that when the US military dropped atomic bombs on civilians, that was not done just to wipe out the civilians. Killing the civilians was trivia. In fact, I believe that the US had already secured the surrender of Japan and the dropping of those atomic bombs might have been entirely for the purposes of intimidating The rest of the world.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnThe US military was intimidating current enemies at that time, possible future enemies, possible competitors, possible allies, and so on. It was, to copy the title of a music album by a group called Pantera, a vulgar display of power.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhy have there been public rituals of human sacrifice for thousands of years? Why not just conduct rituals of human sacrifice in private (which is certainly how it is done in many cases)? A public execution is not just to kill one person or a few people, but to display in public the power of those performing the ritual of human sacrifice.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnIt is to inspire terror. For the same reason, a teacher can write the name of the child on the board (As a disciplinary punishment) to socially display the social dominance of the teacher over the child. That social display is not for the child whose name is written on the board. The social display is to terrify or intimidate all of the other children.
J R Fibonacci Hunn
J R Fibonacci HunnWhich is a more effective way for an adult to govern the behavior of children: for the adult to have a sacred book in which the adult privately records the grades of the children… Or both a private record and a big colorful display with gold star stickers that the adult gives out to a group of children in a ritual and then encourages the children to put up onto the big colorful display where everyone can see?
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